Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 789 posts

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#101

Post by throwaway15805 »

Sweepi wrote: post #61
throwaway15805 wrote: post #21

Been there too. Paying thousands of € for a notary just to read some text you wrote out loud to you is absurd. The cherry on top is the exit tax: > And no, I could not just leave instead. My first company, Freshflow, is valuable enough that walking out of Germany would trigger a massive six-figure exit tax, on gains I have not even realised, purely for the privilege of leaving. This is ostensibly there to prevent lar…

Maybe I am missing the point, but what is the alternative? You found a company in Germany, dont realize your gains, therefore dont pay taxes, then leave the country, realize your gains, and still dont pay taxes? Why should Germany or any other country allow this?

The issue is liquidity. The tax comes due as soon as you leave, but you might not be able to liquidate your shares quickly enough to be able to pay those taxes. Depending on how your company gets valued these can be eye-watering numbers.

This is something you can solve with enough time, but if I get a job offer where I'm supposed to start in 2 months? Very inconvenient. (There are some ways to spread this out have this tax burden spread out over time, but it still represents significant friction)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#102

Post by purerandomness »

earcar wrote: post #26
bibinou wrote: post #14

The mantra has always been to only create the company after sending the first invoice. Edit: oh it's setup like this to cheat on taxes.

I had already people wanting to work with me before even starting the company. Couldn't send them invoices. Most importantly: didn't speed up the process!

You can always send invoices without a company. Your tax office will sort it out retrospectively.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#103

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

whazor wrote: post #10
VadimPR wrote: post #8

Before Europe gets lumped in as one country, founding a company in Netherlands and Sweden, speaking from personal experience, is a breeze. Although Sweden is a bit strange in the fact that banks have as much equal say as the government authority does in you starting a company, and if they don't want you as a customer, they can simply deny the right for your company to start!

In Germany it might be easier to open a company remotely via Estonia

This is pretty bad advice as your company will be dual resident with Germany having the right to tax .

That means you pay German taxes + double amount of compliance ( because you have to file everything in Germany+ Estonia ).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#104

Post by nish1500 »

I've run a tech business on three continents, and nothing comes close to the Kafkaesque labyrinth of the German world.

Everything is unbelievably complicated and over-engineered, and every layer is immune to change. Every rule was rational when it was added, and now everyone has a financial stake in continued complexity. The German notary is the highest-paid notary in the world, and the highest-earning professional in the country.

That said, I think a lot of the frustration comes from a mismatch of expectations. Germany wasn't designed for randos to start companies and thrust change on society. All the bureaucracy is a filter, and what it filters out is change itself.

You were never supposed to incorporate a company. You were supposed to get a job at Volkswagen.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#105

Post by pluies »

VadimPR wrote: post #96
sscaryterry wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, it is straight-forward.

The hard part, I heard, was closing a UK company!

It's honestly not hard either. Certainly doesn't require any face-to-face interaction or anything.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#106

Post by Kim_Bruning »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #45
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #22

I looked into GmbH (german) , BV (dutch) , and OU (estonian) . GmbH seems very unpleasant. BV and OU are easier to obtain. But BV requires your primary place of business to be the Netherlands, which isn't always practical when you're trying to extend your activities internationally. OU is supposed to be better for international operations, but -because it's a single country initiative- creates new and interesting tax…

> But BV requires your primary place of business to be the Netherlands, which isn't always practical when you're trying to extend your activities internationally You bill from the Netherlands and I think this is the only thing required. Uber in Europe charges your cards from Uber BV for example. And I think Uber is pretty international.

It can be done, but there's contortions to sort out to fit a square peg in a round hole.

If someone has experience doing it right, I'd absolutely be willing to pay for their time to exchange advice.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#107

Post by piterrro »

I've setup my own company in Poland in 2015, by submitting a web form, 30 minutes later I could issue a fully VAT compliant invoice. This was not an incorporation however - that was a sole proprietorship, but I could still hire people full time, issue invoices etc.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#108

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

earcar wrote: post #48
VadimPR wrote: post #8

Before Europe gets lumped in as one country, founding a company in Netherlands and Sweden, speaking from personal experience, is a breeze. Although Sweden is a bit strange in the fact that banks have as much equal say as the government authority does in you starting a company, and if they don't want you as a customer, they can simply deny the right for your company to start!

That is refreshing to hear. Unfortunately I can't get out because of exit tax, an unrealized capital gains tax for the privilege of leaving the country. That is way worse than what I mention in this post and will get its own post soon.

You can delay it until the disposal of your shares , if you move within the Eu

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#109

Post by earcar »

robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

I have yet to find the mythical efficiency everyone was talking about.

Trains, Berlin Brandenburg Airport, this.

It's rules and adherence to rules, more than efficiency, that I've found in my experience.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#110

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

fifafu wrote: post #97
Aurornis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only good thing is that an investor or an owner are not liable with their private money. That’s incredibly important. More than a footnote. I would consider any other form to be non-viable if it doesn’t have such protections. For comparison, starting an LLC in the United States is a trivial operation. I can’t even remember how long it took me to set mine up because it was a trivial event. Maybe a couple hours,…

You can get the same in Germany with the much simpler GmbH or UG. GmbH & Co. KG is much more complex and mostly used to save some taxes in some scenarios. (However I absolutely agree that all of this is much too complicated and slow here in Germany)

In Germany you need a notary in the us you don't.
Post reply on HN