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The war on terror primed America for autocracy

economist.com

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Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#141

Post by rhubarbtree »

Animats wrote: post #19

Yes. History will record that bin Laden won. There's a pre-9/11 book about bin Laden, "The Man Who Declared War on America". Bin Laden was interviewed. Consider the situation at the end of the Clinton administration. The US was at peace. The Soviet Union was gone. The US got along with China and Russia. No major enemies remained. The federal budget was balanced. Bin Laden looked at that, and realized that America had…

Whilst I think there’s some truth to this, America’s elite would have brought us to this point anyway. Trump is a symptom of unfettered neoliberalism exporting jobs and destroying communities rather than a cause. Bin Laden drew America into forever wars and solidified their enemies in some dimensions. But America’s great downfall has been the ruthless pursuit of self-interest by its elite. They smashed the social compact and destroyed its institutions in the pursuit of profit.

I think Bin Laden will get a chapter in the book on the fall of America, but Reagan will be on the front cover.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#143

Post by mullingitover »

rayiner wrote: post #38
danans wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are more or less retracing the path of Rome as the Republic expanded militarily until it was no longer practical to run it as a republic and it transitioned to empire. The current military "excursion" seems to be transitioning the US out of being an empire.

Rome took some unexpected Ls against the barbarians too. Didn’t change the trajectory of the empire.

Who were the barbarians, really? Caesar’s conquest of Gaul was basically a massive human trafficking organization that functioned as a pyramid scheme, and Rome only went downhill (in terms of basic human decency) from there.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#144

Post by mullingitover »

derektank wrote: post #64
Animats wrote: post #19

Yes. History will record that bin Laden won. There's a pre-9/11 book about bin Laden, "The Man Who Declared War on America". Bin Laden was interviewed. Consider the situation at the end of the Clinton administration. The US was at peace. The Soviet Union was gone. The US got along with China and Russia. No major enemies remained. The federal budget was balanced. Bin Laden looked at that, and realized that America had…

Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East. In response to 9/11, we massively expanded our footprint in the region and formed even deeper relationships with the Saudi government (whom Bin Laden hated for in his view, “[suspending] Islamic laws, and replacing it with statuary laws”). You can read it all in his original, late 90s declaration of jihad against the United States[1]…

> Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East

Bush’s famous “Mission Accomplished” photo op was, ironically, on the same day US troops complied with bin Laden’s demand for them to leave Saudi Arabian soil.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#145

Post by Havoc »

chaseadam17 wrote: post #14

we're at the stage of the cycle where we know things are wrong but we don't care enough to do anything about them. unfortunately, it might not be until we live through the consequences that we can muster the energy to care enough again.

Cycle suggest this will revert. Think with current technology it’s possibly to build a silt sustaining autocracy

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#146

Post by rvba »

danans wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t just the GOTW. It was much of the 20th century from World War I onward. Each step led to further centralization of government, a larger and larger security apparatus, and more and more foreign entanglements. We are more or less retracing the path of Rome as the Republic expanded militarily until it was no longer practical to run it as a republic and it transitioned to empire.

> We are more or less retracing the path of Rome as the Republic expanded militarily until it was no longer practical to run it as a republic and it transitioned to empire. The current military "excursion" seems to be transitioning the US out of being an empire.

The poster above seems to promote the secession of Texas and other states - what is the next step of the russian propaganda playbook to ruin USA

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#147

Post by rvba »

rayiner wrote: post #59
shakna wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The failure to integrate the barbarian Goth refugees is generally marked as the beginning of the fall - and absolutely changed the trajectory of the empire.

“Failure to integrate” is one way to describe the Goths sacking Rome. But I agree the barbarians did them in at the end. My point was that the Iran fiasco is more like the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, where Rome backed off after taking a beating. That didn’t mark a transition away from Empire, simply a retreat after a military loss.

The Iran fiasco is Suez Canal 2.0

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#148

Post by graemep »

Terr_ wrote: post #137
inigyou wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The longer things stay vague, the more I become concerned that this may be a scenario that is so common that it has an enduring meme [0], where: 1. The person claims that a broad swathe of facially reasonable and views are being rejected or forbidden in a way that is an unfair overreaction. 2. Pressed, they refuse to provide any concrete details, even in a safe context. 3. They are actually facing difficulty from a m…

I think not in this particular case, and downvoting more than flagging, but I see perfectly reasonable things downvoted. In fact I often upvote things I disagree with because I think the downvotes were unfair. I have been downvoted for reasons that are not obvious to me, and sometimes for posting verifiable facts. Its hard to guess what a particular person's experiences might have been.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#150

Post by globnomulous »

inigyou wrote: post #54
Terr_ wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't even provide examples [of Americans cheering on temporary safety over essential liberty] I've seen other people critiquing it over the years, perhaps it has something to do with other aspects of the delivery or message?

[flagged]

This is nonsense. HN is very lightly, and fairly, moderated.
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