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Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

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Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#241

Post by tmnvix »

croes wrote: post #195
lwansbrough wrote: post #9

Europeans don’t get scolded enough for their resistance to air conditioning. In terms of accounting for preventable deaths, Greece has 2x more heat-related deaths per capita annually than Mississippi has gun deaths. By comparison, the worst US state for heat related deaths, Nevada - a literal desert - has >10x fewer deaths per capita than Greece.

Do you think there is a correlation between air conditioning and climate change denial?

I wouldn't be surprised.

There are people who think it's a good idea to aircondition service station forecourts. I find the irony of the situation tragically absurd. There's a little of that in the comment you are responding to.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#242

Post by kuerbel »

shitloadofbooks wrote: post #6

"Extreme Heat" seems to be 37-40 degrees Celsius which is bafflingly mundane to me as an Australian who grew up in rural New South Wales. We'd pack 30 kids and a teacher into an un-airconditioned classroom with just a ceiling fan and the windows open in that temperature. I imagine the buildings there just aren't built to support that heat plus the body height of hundreds or thousands of attendees?

I guess it's different if you are used to it. 40 degrees is absolutely not normal here. Even 35 is very unusual.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#243

Post by crote »

ajmurmann wrote: post #233
zarzavat wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AC unit essentially requires just a small hole in the wall and a bracket to hold the compressor unit. Europeans have walls don't they? I'm European and I have a wall that could host an AC unit. The barrier is regulatory not engineering.

Is this actually illegal in many places? I proposed this to my parents in Germany and they seemed to be under the impression that they could install one but their village is getting a village-wide heat pump system this fall that can also cool in summer, so they are just sitting this summer out as is.

I highly doubt there are many (if any) places with "installing any kind of AC is illegal" laws.

On the other hand, there are plenty of noise-related laws preventing you from installing an AC loud enough to be a nuisance for your neighbors. But that's solved by getting one with proper sound isolation, or placing it in such a way that the noise doesn't travel to the neighboring properties.

Similarly, you aren't allowed to install an AC on the facade of a protected historical building. But that can be solved by installing it on the rear of the building (where it is invisible), or by placing the unit itself indoors and using hidden air vents.

There's also the issue of landlords and HoAs banning you from making modifications, but that's not really a matter of legality.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#244

Post by g-b-r »

g-b-r wrote: post #43
lwansbrough wrote: post #9

Europeans don’t get scolded enough for their resistance to air conditioning. In terms of accounting for preventable deaths, Greece has 2x more heat-related deaths per capita annually than Mississippi has gun deaths. By comparison, the worst US state for heat related deaths, Nevada - a literal desert - has >10x fewer deaths per capita than Greece.

Had the US not used air conditioning so much we probably wouldn't have this heatwave right now. Oh but what's the problem, just add more air conditioning! :facepalm:

Five downvotes, the blindness of Americans about their lifestyle is dismaying.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#245

Post by gsquaredxc »

crote wrote: post #218
quotemstr wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Blindly putting AC everywhere ... actually works just fine. How do you think mass AC adoption in the US happened? Window units work just fine. Fancy splits and central ducting can come later. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

Look at the population graph of a city like Las Vegas. It basically didn't exist before the invention of AC. Window units don't work in most of Europe because our windows aren't compatible with them. If they were, I would have one . And again, it doesn't solve the core cause. If you want to cool down your home, your first step should be to stop heat from entering . If you can get the same result from €900 of shades a…

Wouldn’t someone that has to pay for an AC’s power bill be more aware of the cost-benefit analysis of energy efficiency over someone that doesn’t?

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#246

Post by CalRobert »

crote wrote: post #178
lwansbrough wrote: post #9

Europeans don’t get scolded enough for their resistance to air conditioning. In terms of accounting for preventable deaths, Greece has 2x more heat-related deaths per capita annually than Mississippi has gun deaths. By comparison, the worst US state for heat related deaths, Nevada - a literal desert - has >10x fewer deaths per capita than Greece.

Well yeah, because it requires re-engineering the entire built environment! Heat waves only became a serious problem in Europe in the last decade. The vast majority of buildings predate the need for air conditioning by several decades - and in plenty of cases by several centuries. The buildings are designed around being livable in a pre-climate-catastrophe climate without needing air conditioning - which is perfectly…

Even now planners are forcing people to build horrible ovens that make no accounting for heat. The planners in Ireland laughed when I talked about over heating in our self built house due to lack of eaves.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#247

Post by yrjrjjrjjtjjr »

thayne wrote: post #215
robhlt wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air conditioners don't need to use fossil fuels. Solar power and AC work really well together because peak solar energy is exactly when you need AC the most. No heat is created either, that would explicitly violate the first law of thermodynamics. An air conditioner powered by solar energy (or anything solar powered) ends up releasing the exact same amount of "excess" heat as the sunlight would have if it hadn't been…

> An air conditioner powered by solar energy (or anything solar powered) ends up releasing the exact same amount of "excess" heat as the sunlight would have if it hadn't been absorbed by the panels. Sure. But solar panels are intentionally designed to absorb a lot of energy. So if you are putting the panels over a dark surface, like asphalt, you'll probably have a net zero effect on heat. If you put them over somethi…

You gotta take entropy into account too. Sunshine is high grade energy, infrared is low grade. Reflecting high grade energy is a huge waste. You could even (in theory) run a solar powered space-ir-dumper and end up with net cooling of earth.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#248

Post by ajmurmann »

stevage wrote: post #70
Aeolun wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more that air conditioning is (currently) prohibitively expensive. The few people I know that have it spent several thousands of euros on their installations. That's not something most people have lying around. You'd think the government could subsidize aircon like they did solar for years, and both of those things combined would translate to very pleasant summers spent in energy neutral air conditioned…

It's strange what people think is expensive. Double glazing is very expensive but no one in Europe would go without it. Aircon is not expensive within the context of a house's construction costs.

Double glazing safes heating and cooling cost though. A large part of the cultural difference and willingness to spend on AC comes from the fact that central Europe only in recent decades got so hot.

Of course thinking a cold is caused by being cold doesn't help either...

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#249

Post by sokoloff »

zarzavat wrote: post #163
lwansbrough wrote: post #9

Europeans don’t get scolded enough for their resistance to air conditioning. In terms of accounting for preventable deaths, Greece has 2x more heat-related deaths per capita annually than Mississippi has gun deaths. By comparison, the worst US state for heat related deaths, Nevada - a literal desert - has >10x fewer deaths per capita than Greece.

As a European I agree, at least for Western Europe. It's not just the resistance but the price. There is tremendous price gouging in the AC industry. The real cost of a mini split system is the low hundreds of dollars but good luck finding one for that price in Europe. If it were regulated as a life critical technology and not as a luxury then it could be substantially cheaper.

Low thousands (or very high hundreds), perhaps. It’s still one fairly heavy outdoor unit, a moderately bulky indoor unit, a pump, two radiators, insulated pipes and control wires between, a circuit (wiring and an overcurrent device) and a disconnect, and a couple hours of labor from two tradespeople.

That’s unlikely to be sustainable for an out of pocket of a low hundreds figure.

Re: Extreme Heat conference cancelled due to extreme heat warning

#250

Post by eecc »

lwansbrough wrote: post #9

Europeans don’t get scolded enough for their resistance to air conditioning. In terms of accounting for preventable deaths, Greece has 2x more heat-related deaths per capita annually than Mississippi has gun deaths. By comparison, the worst US state for heat related deaths, Nevada - a literal desert - has >10x fewer deaths per capita than Greece.

Well, until recently Greece was struck by a savage “restructuring” and “reforms” package that left people without pensions or even chemotherapy when in need. I don’t think aircon is the priority for many of them
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