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Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

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Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#91
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It discourages potential lawsuits. If companies retaliate by banning entire law firms from accessing popular venues, that's going to discourage people from filing otherwise meritorious lawsuits against the venues. The difference between MSG and your house or your land is that the Nicks don't play at your house.

Don't businesses have free association? Why should I have to allow someone into my business who has sued me?

James Dolan: "If any law firm in New York takes a client who plans to sue me, then all employees and their families of that law firm will be banned from any event at MSG".

Leaving aside the fact that it is the client suing, the law firm just represents them (as generally, or at least for all intents, is required by law)...

... this is no different to a SLAPP. Whereby Dolan knows that very few law firms are going to be willing to represent a client who wants to sue MSG.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#92
post #82
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It discourages potential lawsuits. If companies retaliate by banning entire law firms from accessing popular venues, that's going to discourage people from filing otherwise meritorious lawsuits against the venues. The difference between MSG and your house or your land is that the Nicks don't play at your house.

That's definitely the best argument I've seen, at least it makes a case for a narrow rule against 'retaliation' against officers of the court. Banning 'outspoken critics' though still seems fine to me. And such a regulation definitely doesn't need to have anything to do with facial recognition - one could imagine such a problematic retaliation being carried out by tons of methods both easy and labor-intensive. A bar…

New York City actually has a law that prohibits theaters from banning theatrical critics.

Back in the day, the theaters just banned all the critics.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#93
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike that legal arguments often fail to distinguish cases where scale or speed create something transformative in themselves. Yes you could keep a few people out of a small venue, but good luck keeping a list of 1000 people out of a stadium. The tech creates new powers for large entities able to deploy it that aren't countered by any capacities gained by individuals and small groups. The argument should be made…

Interesting. I kind of feel the opposite way. I don't want our laws to say it's perfectly okay for someone to do something until they scale, and then suddenly it's wrong. > on the basis of what this tech enables itself Hmm... I really don't like where that could head. Publishing books was considered a pretty simple 1st Amendment thing. Anybody can just publish whatever books. If you don't like it, don't buy the book.…

I mean, if you'd asked law makers in 1850 if we needed speed limits on the roads between towns, you'd be laughed out of the room. Does that mean we shouldn't have speed limits? Or does that mean that nobody in power dreamed that it would be a serious or wide-spread enough problem that just suing each individual for damages was insufficient? Sometimes, we even have to invent new ways to express the damages so that suit can even be brought.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#94
post #25

Debating this specific dossier ignores the larger issue, IMO: > MSG has deployed facial recognition technology since 2018 to identify people entering the venue. MSG’s facial recognition systems have been used to block entry to the stadium for all sorts of people. The list includes lawyers who work at law firms in litigation with MSG, even if they are not part of the litigation themselves; and potentially a man who on…

The stadium pays no property tax. Its a bummer some enterprising pro-bono lawyer hasnt bullied some clever points of leverage onto city subsidized projects that strip some of the god-like powers to deny access from these places. On a personal note, James Dolan seems universally disliked by staff, fans and regular people alike. It's almost impressive.

Some lawyers MSG banned from the stadium tried to sue the venue. these lawyers argued that because MSG was not fully “open to the public” as their liquor licensed required, their liquor licensed should be revoked.

The appellate court ultimately decided that a ticket is a “revocable license” and that while MSG needs to be “open to the public,” they don’t need to provide unrestricted access. Essentially, since night clubs can disallow/allow entrance based on arbitrary (non-protected) reasons — such as dress code, status, celebrity etc — yet night clubs have precedent of being allowed to keep their liquor licenses, using similar reasoning MSG’s bans are permissible. This decision seems reasonable to me; however, I hope the NYC political apparatus does political maneuvering to make MSG implement less Orwellian policies. I do not hold my breath but have residues of hope.

Hard pivot and a hot take in the US of A, but since MSG is arguably a natural monopoly, it would be reasonable for NYC to “nationalize” MSG. NYC already has the expertise managing large and multifaceted infrastructure. The operation’s surplus value going back to NYC residents rather than unlikeable (and rent-seeking) James Dolan seems a politically defensible and attention-grabby position: the latter of which is increasingly important in our low-attention-span world. Lastly, James Dolan could be portrayed as a security threat to NYC constituents due to this facial recognition software: Americans and American economists tend to be more willing to nationalize things for the sake of national security.

I look forward to seeing myself on MSG’s next leaked ministry of truth list (;

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#95
I'm convinced that a dominate use of all the exploding construction of data centers will be to ramp up spying on citizens, likely in the name of "fighting terrorism". The same is being used to require I.D for every internet user in the name of fighting child porn. The AT&T case with technician Klein proves that the government will secretly and continuously violate the laws of the land to serve their own purposes.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't businesses have free association? Why should I have to allow someone into my business who has sued me?

James Dolan: "If any law firm in New York takes a client who plans to sue me, then all employees and their families of that law firm will be banned from any event at MSG". Leaving aside the fact that it is the client suing, the law firm just represents them (as generally, or at least for all intents, is required by law)... ... this is no different to a SLAPP. Whereby Dolan knows that very few law firms are going to b…

I don't like it but should I be forced to allow lawyers who sued me to come into my establishment? I think the real issue is that MSG is basically a public utility.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#98
post #57
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who cares if it's by having a bouncer at each entrance with pictures of all the 'personae non gratae' or with a camera It's a tad harder to remotely compromise the banned people database (again) with a few bouncers

If you made a list of all the people you hate with their pictures, should government regulators be involved with where you keep it and how you safeguard it? I don't feel like I would care even if I was on the list.

If you're doing that as part of a business, yes. If you're doing it personally, no.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#99
Any private individual or organization has the right to Bar anyone else from their facility. Madison square garden is simply doing it at scale. I pretty much hate everything MSG is about, but they have a perfectly acceptable right to do this.

Re: Madison Square Garden compiled a list of activists against facial recognition

#100
post #50

Personally I think that these conversations are focused on the wrong thing. Facial recognition stands to be a great tool in spotting "the bad guys" so that appropriate measures can be taken. For example preventing people who have repeatedly been convicted of violence ("hooliganism") from entering sports stadiums. The problem that is not being missed in the conversation about the technology is: who gets to decide who…

Why shouldn't they be able to blacklist lawyers? If I owned a restaurant and was being sued by opposing attorneys, I think it would be perfectly normal and acceptable to bar those attorneys from my restaurant.
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