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California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

the3dprintingnerd.com

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Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to have a voice in how the regulation is implemented, perhaps you should offer suggestions for how to implement it better. That's how it works in most industries; legislators propose to enact regulation X, manufacturers respond that X would have undesirable consequences and Y would be better, and then they discuss to figure out how to best balance all the competing interests. For reasons that aren't entir…

Why not focus on the actual gun problem, handguns, and not histrionics about ghost guns and SBRs?

[deleted]

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to have a voice in how the regulation is implemented, perhaps you should offer suggestions for how to implement it better. That's how it works in most industries; legislators propose to enact regulation X, manufacturers respond that X would have undesirable consequences and Y would be better, and then they discuss to figure out how to best balance all the competing interests. For reasons that aren't entir…

Why not focus on the actual gun problem, handguns, and not histrionics about ghost guns and SBRs?

We try! But most California restrictions on handguns have been struck down by the courts, and many of the surviving restrictions manufacturers simply refuse to comply with. They've been boycotting microstamping technology for over a decade, blatantly lying about commercial viability as an excuse for their policy preference not to do it. (I'm slightly sympathetic, because it is true that the first manufacturer to comply will probably themselves get boycotted by anti-gun-regulation zealots.)

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) For the vast majority of Californians, the nearest state border is 3-5 hours away. 2) those abortion bans have definitely reduced the number of abortions. Not zero, but that's a silly goal for any ban. Obviously the law is stupid. But states passing their own regulations isn't on its face.

>those abortion bans have definitely reduced the number of abortions. Not zero, but that's a silly goal for any ban. really? what percentage of Americans can't afford a bus ticket to the nearest city in an adjacent state?

About half of Americans lack any access to intercity transport that isn't a private car.[1]

About 15% of rural Americans aren't within 25 miles of any intercity transit, much less interstate; low-income residents are disproportionally represented in that group. That figure jumps to 25% if you exclude suburbs, and in some states that figure is as high as 62%.[2]

Even as intercity bus demand has increased due to the declining quality of air travel in the US,[3] rural intercity bus access has declined. Greyhound served many rural routes until its slow collapse before being acquired by FlixBus, which is more focused on urban access than Greyhound was. The deregulation of intercity bus access in 1982, which led to the closure of many intercity routes (disproportionally in the rural Midwest) that required subsidization from more profitable routes, was a major factor.[4]

So "what percentage of Americans can't afford a bus ticket to the nearest city in an adjacent state" is a non-starter of a question, because most of the Americans who'd _need_ an interstate bus ticket can't even get to a bus stop without first owning a car... with which they could simply drive to another state.

1: https://itdp.org/2024/01/24/high-cost-transportation-united-...

2: https://www.bts.gov/data-spotlight/85-rural-residents-have-r...

3: https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/bus-travel-tickets-airl...

4: https://www.thenation.com/article/society/greyhound-bus-tran...

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#174
post #76

NY is pushing the same sort of stuff. The question to ask is how many people are actually being killed with 3D printed weapons? I don't have that info, but I would guess they are statistical outliers and would have been replaced by other homemade weapons if not available. Politicians love to "fix" problems that aren't really problems in the first place.

The problem is there is a lot of garbage about it. Ghost guns are a real issue, but ghost guns are not 3D printed guns. 3D printed is a very niche case. They're only good for one shot ever, they are not reliable even for that. And they're bulky. The one thing they do is make it much harder for a metal detector to find them. Ghost guns made by CNC milling equipment are nearly identical to what you would buy from the m…

There are plenty of 3D printed guns that are good for more than one shot. The classic examples are 3D printed Glock-style frames and AR-15 lower receivers. As far as US gun laws are concerned, those parts are the firearm and the rest of the parts are uncontrolled. So you print those, buy barrels, triggers, magazines, etc to finish the build and voila, ghost gun.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not printing the metal parts. They’re printing the frame (as in “polymer framed handgun”). The frame is the part that gets the serial number and is considered the controlled part of the gun. Rather than the trigger, the springs, the barrel, etc. Other than the frame, which requires an FFL for transfer, especially across state lines, the rest of the parts can be ordered and shipped from anywhere and are not co…

Wait. Do you mean I can simply buy barrels, a trigger mechanism, all without any special license, but not the frame?

Correct.

Other countries regulate the pressure-bearing parts instead. It probably started off with a safety rationale (those parts are generally proof tested), but those parts ALSO tend to be the ones that are more difficult for someone to produce at home.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#176

In general I agree with the 3D printing and open source community that bills like these are bad ideas. However, I want to ask this question in the spirit of helping craft better arguments: Given that it is extremely well known that most commercial printers will refuse to print anything that looks like counterfeit currency, why is this considered technically unworkable? I agree that compliance would be onerous, but th…

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Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#177

In general I agree with the 3D printing and open source community that bills like these are bad ideas. However, I want to ask this question in the spirit of helping craft better arguments: Given that it is extremely well known that most commercial printers will refuse to print anything that looks like counterfeit currency, why is this considered technically unworkable? I agree that compliance would be onerous, but th…

> commercial printers will refuse to print anything that looks like counterfeit currency

They will refuse to print images that contain the EURion constellation, a cluster of points with specific distances between them. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation)

More generally, "Does this image represent US currency?" and "Does this 3D mesh represent a dangerous gun part?" are different kinds of questions.

Checking if an image is US currency is simple. Not only can an image similarity hash be used, but the design of the currency can be changed to make checking easier. The checking program just has to run a textbook algorithm and compare the result with a handful of hashes (we only have a few denominations of bills).

We can be confident that the checking program will always see substantial portions of the bill, so it can always see the pattern. If someone chopped the bill into tiny pieces, it would look fake when glued together. Looking like a real bill is the thing we want to control, and that's something we can reliably measure with simple algorithms.

Checking if a 3D shape is a gun part is an unsolvable problem. (It would be equivalent to making a program that can detect hidden "subversive" meanings in text.) The checker would have to understand how the piece could operate in the hands of a skilled person. Parts could be printed in multiple pieces, or have material removed after printing, so it'd have to anticipate all possible post-processing steps.

Even if the problem is limited to "match against these known gun part hashes", gun parts are not defined by their overall appearance. The files can be mutated until they no longer trip the detector, yet can be easily post-processed into functional components. (Also, a similarity hash for 3D toolpaths may not exist.)

(Such a hashing regime would be useless to stop "3D-printed guns" as a concept, because the design could be changed to not match the hash at all, without post-processing.)

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And China wins the AI race

Who cares of the races when CHILDREN are at stake!

Hey, let's be fair, a number of politicians and ultra rich psychopaths care a lot about children, it was covered in those documents...

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#179

In general I agree with the 3D printing and open source community that bills like these are bad ideas. However, I want to ask this question in the spirit of helping craft better arguments: Given that it is extremely well known that most commercial printers will refuse to print anything that looks like counterfeit currency, why is this considered technically unworkable? I agree that compliance would be onerous, but th…

Because you don't really have to do any additional steps once the ink is on the paper like you do with a 3D printed firearm.

Looking at just the silhouette or shape, you couldn't really tell the difference between the body of a firearm that was later going to receive a metal tube from the hardware store or a plastic bracket that I'm going to use to support a shelf.

And even if you could accurately tell the difference, how do you know I'm not helping my nephew build a Nerf gun?

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these laws already on the books places like Europe, Japan with strict gun control laws?

Good laws for gun control probably are enough to cover also 3D printed guns.

The problem, as far as they are concerned, is enforcement. The law can say that X is illegal and ban selling it, but if you can 3D-print it, and its use is already illegal either way, then the law is moot.

Note that this isn't really limited to guns either. I foresee a similar moral panic wrt 3D printing "killer drones" (i.e. parts that allow one to attach explosive to a drone) and software that allows you to circumvent various restrictions on drone firmware. All it'll take is one high profile attack using a drone...

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