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What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

pluralistic.net

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Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#251

Post by rootusrootus »

CPLX wrote: post #221
rootusrootus wrote: post #211

Could we step back a little and maybe revisit the premise that we need the gov't to be protecting children to begin with? That's what parents are supposed to be doing.

No let's not. Let's actually create and maintain a society. There are still places in the world where you and your family can literally fend for yourself against nature and rival gangs and so on if you're just super attached to the concept though, it's not like this option has been foreclosed.

This discussion is about the Internet. I.e. that we already have police and regulate in-person things like selling alcohol to minors, etc, is not a great argument in support of policing information.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#252

Post by zug_zug »

akmiller wrote: post #36
zug_zug wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure here's one example of decentralizing it -- it's going to be overly simple just as a toy example to show how easy it could be: Whenever you want to prove your adult you go to "am I an adult.gov" and you use your credit card or whatever to prove you are an adult. At which point you get a 1-time 5-digit code that is UNIVERSAL TO EVERY SINGLE HUMAN and good for 1 hour (everybody who uses the site gets the same code…

Same code for all people for 1 hour and you don't think we'd immediately have rotating codes to pass the gate?

I sure hope so.

I think the only thing I actually have any concern about is phones and social media use for kids, and I think that has a much easier solution than any sorting of tracking-BS.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#253

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

john_strinlai wrote: post #2

> "Age verification" means that everyone who does anything online will have to submit to fine-grained tracking and recording of all their online activities. its been said 1000 times here, but: age verification doesn't have to be a nightmare dystopia of 24/7 fine-grained tracking and recording unless you are somehow hoping to achieve 100% success rate (something we have not done with any other law ever). there are sev…

The so-called "social media" companies in the past have bragged to advertisers and the public about how much they know about their targets, also known as "users". Statements like, "We know more about you than your friends and family."

Now, is this really true. Probably not. It's exaggeration. It's hype

But these companies have learned that a 100% correct is not necessary to make money. For example, if they are correct 80% of the time, then maybe that's good enough

A law that achieves an 80% reduction in youth ad targets might also be "good enough"

The toes getting stepped on belong to the companies

The kids who will still access these companies' websites come hell or high water, the 20%, are unlikely to complain

Complaints come from the companies and those who rely on these companies to make money. Like the author of this blog post, they keep calling a handful of Big Tech websites/app endpoints "the internet"

Their toes are going to get crushed

"Social media" is not "the internet"

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#254

Post by B56b »

ipaddr wrote: post #225

This idea sounds like the death of social media. Remove anyone under 18 ensures they won't signup after. Forcing id verification means 70-80% of adult accounts will be dead. Network effects disappear. Those who remain will be businesses pushing something, hackers/spammers and some die hard group.

yay?

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#255

Post by rootusrootus »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #23
actionfromafar wrote: post #14

Could we instead disallow algorithmic skinner-box addiction machines for everyone ?

How about taking some personal responsibility for your life? This shouldn't even be a consideration concerning adults.

> This shouldn't even be a consideration concerning adults.

Ban the boxes for kids

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#256

Post by Wowfunhappy »

cogman10 wrote: post #241
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, they don't know. They're going to learn very quickly when they want to use some website and they can't. We agree it doesn't need to be 100% perfect. But it needs to be at least, like, 60% perfect, right? And unless you make it at least a bit hard to bypass, it will stop virtually no one.

Some undoubtedly will. Installing a new browser is already a bit hard for most people. I think you are a little skewed in your thinking being online on HN. You also aren't thinking about age. Certainly 16 and 18 year old probably can get a new browser installed. But a 14 year old? 12 year old? 10 year old? That barrier is a lot higher the younger a kid is.

I just finished my second year as a fifth grade teacher, so I have a lot of experience with ten year olds. I am confident a majority of my students would be able to install an alternative web browser if they needed to, and a majority of the remainder would ask a friend to do it.

To give you an example of the workarounds kids will find: Youtube was blocked on school laptops, so the kids all started embedding Youtube videos inside of Google Sheets in order to watch stuff. This isn't, like, something a few savvy kids did, it was a widespread and common practice.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#257

Post by rootusrootus »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #202
actionfromafar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are also for heroin vending machines at every school corner if you watch a 30 second ad slot. You don't have to use them, you know.

No, but I'm not against selling alcohol and fast sports cars to adults, for example. I'm not very fond of a nanny state that prohibits almost everything to adults "for their sake" and because the government knows so much better.

It is somewhat more challenging for the vendor selling alcohol or sports cars to manipulate your thinking, so the analogy is strained.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#258

Post by LudwigNagasena »

john_strinlai wrote: post #2

> "Age verification" means that everyone who does anything online will have to submit to fine-grained tracking and recording of all their online activities. its been said 1000 times here, but: age verification doesn't have to be a nightmare dystopia of 24/7 fine-grained tracking and recording unless you are somehow hoping to achieve 100% success rate (something we have not done with any other law ever). there are sev…

The age verification that doesn't have to be a nightmare dystopia of 24/7 fine-grained tracking and recording is called parental controls and it already exists in most systems. It doesn't require any proof of ID, internet connection, complex distributed systems, and so on. And it has near 100% success rate.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#259

Post by krupan »

Parents largely control what their kids have access to, whether it requires a device, a data plan, home Wi-Fi, whatever. Where parents don't/can't control their kids' access, no amount of regulation and technology will fix it.

This applies not just to social media, but drugs, alcohol, porn, etc. Yes, laws and IDs add friction and that's good, but if a kid really wants those things they are going to find a way.

Social media already had built in friction without needing new regulations and ID requirements. To access social media you need a relatively expensive (for kids) device and some way to connect that device to the Internet, which is also not free.

The biggest problem I see is that unlike alcohol, drugs, and porn, there are seemingly benign reasons for kids to use social media. Sports teams, dance classes, youth groups, etc. all want to keep in touch and allow group communication. Too often the adults in charge turn to Instagram or whatever social media app for the group communication. Now, unfortunately, your kid needs an IG account.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#260

Post by llbbdd »

inigyou wrote: post #156
sneak wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already failed to do that by steadily eroding the educational system and its standards over the last 50-70 years. We’re already there. The electorate can’t locate the countries on a map in which the US is fighting multiple wars in their name. Banning Instagram ain’t gonna fix that. This is not in any way whatsoever about children.

Is it possible that two or more things both harm children?

Let's ban books and skateboards too
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