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VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

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161–170 of 226 posts

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#161
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just started using qwen3.6:35b a couple days ago running on my framework desktop and rather impressed. It runs really well and reminds me of probably the first Claude model I used. It's the first local model that's actually working for me in a coding agent I've tried. Very exciting!

Try 27b, it's significantly smarter than 35b-a3b (although it is slower, it's not so bad with MTP).

Hmm, I just assumed bigger was better. How's it different?

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#162
post #122
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just started using qwen3.6:35b a couple days ago running on my framework desktop and rather impressed. It runs really well and reminds me of probably the first Claude model I used. It's the first local model that's actually working for me in a coding agent I've tried. Very exciting!

Could you please share which coding agent you are using with it?

I settled on opencode after trying goose and aider as well. I'll probably try some more but opencode worked similar to Claude code which is my main agent.

I serve the model with ollama and am thinking about replacing ollama but haven't looked into it.

I have openwebui for chat if I want that too, but don't really use it.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#163
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try 27b, it's significantly smarter than 35b-a3b (although it is slower, it's not so bad with MTP).

Hmm, I just assumed bigger was better. How's it different?

Off the top of my head since it seems to be the quick info you're looking for: IIRC, with these two, the 27B is a dense model, meaning it's all active at inference. Meanwhile, the 35B is a Mixture of Experts (MoE), so only part of its network (3B?) is active at any time.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#164
Beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning you say?

Prompt: If A goes to B who then goes to C, can A send something to C?

Response:

We need to interpret best. The phrase "If A goes to B who then goes to C, can A send something to C?" could be a puzzle about the concept of sending something (like passing a ball) and the relationships.

Scenario: A gives something to B, and B passes it on to C. Question: Can A also give the same thing to C? Answer: Only if A can obtain a second copy (e.g., the thing was duplicated). Otherwise, after handing it to B, A no longer holds it and cannot “send” it unless a copy exists.

[Lots of other unnecessary commentary and "scenarios" that make even lesser sense]

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#165

I really hope that in a couple of years I can have a laptop that runs a reasonably good coding agent locally, that I can run fast and do most of my programming with, without running my laptop hot. I could keep open code and use other models when needed, but really for most of my work, I'm already breaking it down so that I can review code changes eventually, and I just need something reasonably decent and fast and un…

I hope so too. But I fear that it will feel inadequate if we know there is always a $20 online model that is an order of magnitude better. I don't think there will be a "good enough" local model so long as frontier models look so much better.

Seems like most people have settled on Opus 4.6 as the breaking point (me as well).

Once I can spend 10k to run Opus 4.6 at home, I'm done.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#167
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it know about Wikipedia and when to use it? From the tool description? If we had 100k such tools, then that wouldn't even fit in the context. This is only one example, plus if the topic is more complex, maybe it had to search/learn everything (what is table tennis, what is spin, what is a human, what is a ball), etc. So it would be like spawning a baby human, have it spend an (instant) life learning about t…

Imagine you only know how to cook (use fry pan skill) and know how to cook omelette (recipe). You get the task to cook doner kebab. How many Wikipedia pages do you need to read to get a good understanding? I guess its max 5. I think grounding your abstract problem to an example makes it more trivial, than it sounds in general. > How would it know about Wikipedia and when to use it? 2 general concepts "You have to get…

I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Yes, but still "how to cook" is not atomic. It involves knowing how to move stuff, how to measure, what "cooked" looks like in different environment (i.e. different lighting) or variations in ingredients, how to recover from specific failures (i.e. a good cook can fix accidentally adding too much salt, by counter-balancing with an ingredient that absorbs the extra salt). And this is only one skill.

It's a bit how deep image neural nets work, where simply detecting shape primitives is not enough, the net is also the connection and relation between those primitives.

Even saying, the AI should just have the "cooking" or "coding" skill, trivializes the problem.

> Humans spend 99% of their life on boring repeating tasks

But we are also non-stop unconciously learning about the world non-stop, from the analgous stream of inputs and seeing the immediate result/feedback. Even looking at static picture is like over-training a specific dataset.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#168
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I just assumed bigger was better. How's it different?

Off the top of my head since it seems to be the quick info you're looking for: IIRC, with these two, the 27B is a dense model, meaning it's all active at inference. Meanwhile, the 35B is a Mixture of Experts (MoE), so only part of its network (3B?) is active at any time.

Thanks! Dense models have been slow on my compute, but I'll give it a try. If its not toooooo slow then it's fine I mostly fire and forget agents anyway.

Edit: seems fast! I'll try it out some more, thanks again.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#169
post #110

Looks like we are seeing small but mighty model breakthroughs, outpacing the pure capital firepower of SOTA providers. I love rooting for the little guy, but is it too soon to call it? To play devils advocate, could it just be the benchmarks are not efficient enough to capture success of real developer workflows?

I've just started using qwen3.6:35b a couple days ago running on my framework desktop and rather impressed. It runs really well and reminds me of probably the first Claude model I used. It's the first local model that's actually working for me in a coding agent I've tried. Very exciting!

If your framework desktop is the 128G Strix Halo, I recommend giving Qwen 3.5 122B-A10B a shot.

This Q5_K_M quant should be near lossless and fit with full 256K context in about 100GB of RAM: https://huggingface.co/AesSedai/Qwen3.5-122B-A10B-GGUF

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#170
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could probably train a model to consider boolean logic, modal logic, and mathematics reasonably well, but there is still a pretty big leap between that and thinking about things. Even the most basic questions such as put a ball in a cup and place it on a table upside down then pick up the cup and put it in a box. Requires knowledge of things not mentioned in the question (notably gravity). Strict definiti…

>Even the most basic questions such as put a ball in a cup and place it on a table upside down then pick up the cup and put it in a box. That reminds me - this used to be my go-to question for smaller models and on which they would always fail miserably on: A small strawberry is placed in a large cup. The cup is placed upside down on the kitchen table. Someone then lifts the cup as-is and puts it in the microwave. Wh…

The hard part was always the number of 'r's
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