Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you trust today's politicians to hire competent engineers? Do you trust today's politicians to provide all the money the engineers ask for? Besides an engineering problem, they are also a political problem for as long as they exist, and even longer. Remember how Russia bombed Chernobyl in the Ukraine war?
they dont hire engineers either. Those are hired by companies that design/build reactors. How many died from Chernobyl bombing in Ukraine?
Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
971–980 of 1001 posts
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#972Earlier quoted context omitted.
they dont hire engineers either. Those are hired by companies that design/build reactors. How many died from Chernobyl bombing in Ukraine?
Nothing happens until it does. Chernobyl was the safest reactor until it wasn't.
I don’t totally disagree though. You can reduce it to economics. Nuclear has a safety profile whose far tail becomes exponentially expensive. It also has a lot of hidden costs that often get hand waved away.
There have been much worse industrial accidents than Chernobyl in terms of life lost, like Bhopal which I think is still the record. But I believe Fukushima may have even passed Chernobyl as the most expensive industrial accident in history.
For the cost of one Fukushima cleanup, Japan could have built wind solar and batteries equal to many Fukushima plants combined output.
That’s really the problem. Amortized over the whole fleet over decades, and also including either waste disposal or recycling (which is also expensive), nuclear may just not be cost competitive. Fission power is a tech that looks spectacular on paper.
I’m talking about fission of course. If we make fusion work that will be different. It isn’t dangerous to those outside the plant and produces a tiny fraction of the waste. (It would make some due to neutron activation but much less and much less “hot.”)
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#973Earlier quoted context omitted.
>So a scenario where humans will not do anything to stop a fire? Sorry that's not realistic. You seriously can't imagine people fleeing instead of sacrificing their lives? You can't imagine an ongoing war or natural disaster making it impossible to stop a fire? You can't imagine anyone wanting to sabotage a plant as a terrorist act? We are very lucky then that the people actually in charge of nuclear power have bette…
Countries do have armies where ppl sacrifice their lives, Ukraine's war being a proof, so no, I can't imagine a Chernobyl situation being worse in this regard. Wth are you saying about Fukushima? It would not have been such a catastrophy- Fukushima is a direct proof that even under extreme conditions of tsunami and earthquakes a proper design leads to better results. And situation got much better after that due to ad…
Every country operating nuclear power has rules, regulations and action plans that match what I am saying about the dangers of nuclear power plants.
If I'm spreading anything it's knowledge that's agreed upon by every expert in the field.
Your arguments rest on the idea that nuclear is harmless because the harm hasn't happened yet, and that's simply not good enough.
>The statement about pretending to have cheap electricity is total bullshit and you know it
No it's not BS. I assumed you were familiar with ARENH but apparently not - in short, France decided that nuclear electricity should be sold at 42 euros per MWh, but it turned out that was not enough to sustain the plants and keep them in good shape. It ended with France having to let taxpayers cover the EDF debt and renovations.
Once the nationalization was done, the new price is 70e per MWh.
This means exactly what I said - during all of ARENH, nuclear power "pretended" to be cheaper than it actually was, but there was a hidden cost that ended up having to be paid for by taxpayers decades later.
If 70 is the true cost or just a less bad price than ARENH dictated remains to be seen, but there is one fact we know already - the price for electricity in France is often less than 70 euros. And when it is, the taxpayers in France take the loss.
A similar hidden cost is brewing in Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, the US, and it has surfaced in Japan (bigtime) and Korea.
I want you to study other sources than the ones you have studied so far, and widen your knowledge about the topic. But you are clearly annoyed with me so it's probably counterproductive to argue this further here.
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#974Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, my concern is that France will have to spend around €150-200 billion in the next ten years just to keep their current capacity. I guess that's the reason that they went for renewables for capacity expansion - it's much cheaper to build and operate renewables rather than nuclear.
Those are part of EDF financials. Again, EDF already did Great Carenage for over half of reactors. And it didn't have CFD's for that - only own budget. And it was despite stupid ARENH law that got replaced this year. Germany is about to spend over 600bn for grid expansion till 2045 and EEG subsidies for the next 10 years will too, be about 200bn (if not cancelled by govt which is unlikely unless AFD is elected) Franc…
Well, we'll see, I guess.
Yes, Germany is going to spend about €600 billion in infrastructure. That has more to do with electrification than renewables - France too need another €250 billion for grid upgrades until 2045.
As for the "6+8" program - EDF still hasn't produced an official cost estimation for the for the full fleet and the original estimate for the first six (€52 billion) is has already been pushed upward to €72.8 billion.
Electricity prices in France have for a long time been a political matter, not market decision. That's a different approach than that of Germany, so the two really cannot be compared.
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#975Earlier quoted context omitted.
Germany replaced 2/3 of its coal use in 25 years while simultaneously inventing a whole new industry and a new way of thinking (some people still fail to understand it). This way of thinking has led to hundreds of gigawatts of new clean capacity per year in the last few years and continuously growing. This has already now been way more beneficial to mankind than nuclear has achieved in the last 60 years. The biggest…
No it didn't replace 2/3 of coal. Coal demand dropped as consumption dropped and Germany became net importer down from exporting 60+TWh/y The claim of what Germany did for humanity was more beneficial is such a farce considering it's emissions Your claim about repository somewhat implies that since there isn't a repository there will not he one which is bullshit. Humanity has tons of repositories for handling dangero…
The only farce in the energy world I can see is that a positive example of emissions reduction like Germany is being singled out on ideological and political grounds, whereas the biggest offenders get a free pass. Examples are Poland which will accomplish nothing for 25 years despite the technology being cheap and available, and globally the US which reduced coal use by almost completely switching to gas instead of renewables like Germany, and additionally it uses almost twice per capital than Germany. Basically Germany could be 100% fossil fuels for electricity and be less bad than the US. Wild no?
My claim about the repository is that there isn't one since 60-70 years nuclear has been used worldwide as an energy source. Instead of wasting time interpreting what I mean, you should just ask me. My answer is: it might not be technologically infeasible (I don't know), but it's expensive and politically difficult since nobody wants to store it. That's just the reality of life -- technology is not deployed in a fantasy but in reality. In general, nuclear is a fantasy technology where large problems are handwaved away as if meaningless, but are difficult to tackle. For Sellafield I already said what I had to say. You either understand it or you don't.
All this maybe made sense 50 years ago, but we have better options now. And despite the occasional brouhaha the world is marching on without it. We'll soon have clean cheap energy and nobody will remember this failed attempt, nobody will remember coal, nobody will remember Trump trying to slow down the transition.
Made in Germany.
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#976Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not sure you have actually closely read what I have said. Early nuclear builds were cheaper to build: https://gordianknotbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/essay... Spent fuel is mostly reusable: https://gordianknotbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/gordi... Low-dose radiation risk is a contested harm: https://jackdevanney.substack.com/p/the-two-lies-that-killed... And no, solar is NOT free..............
>I am not sure you have actually closely read what I have said. I am very familiar with the arguments you link to, they are repeated often in these discussions but they don't hold up to scrutiny. The key mistake for most of these arguments is that nuclear waste is harmless and nuclear plants are safe on their own and don't need to be kept safe at great costs. Any argument that rests on that idea is not going to hold…
https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-...
"If we take that a step further, U.S. commercial reactors have generated about 90,000 metric tons of spent fuel since the 1950s. If all of it were able to be stacked together, it could fit on a single football field at a depth of less than 10 yards."
"Spent" fuel these days is 95%+ the same as the original fuel. If fully recycled then nuclear waste volumes could therefore be reduced 20x from where they are today. So that 10 yards deep would be 2 feet deep.
Most costs are actually self imposed. There is no reason for nuclear not to be the cheapest form of energy out there. If you don't like my original website, please see this one, which talks about the "regulatory ratchet". Regulations were increased on a highly profitable (read: cheap) sector until the industry was no longer profitable (read: as expensive as it is today)
http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter9.html
I don't see why nuclear waste would ever make it into fertilizer.
The problem with nuclear and your cars analogy is that with cars the data is pretty clear that new cars are safer than old - this is not at all clear in nuclear!
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#977Earlier quoted context omitted.
China and South Korea can build nuclear reactors cheaply.
Meaning the solution for cheap nuclear power is cheating a corruption. https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/04/22/136020/how-greed...
"Most significant was the decision to abandon adding an extra wall in the reactor containment building—a feature designed to increase protection against radiation in the event of an accident."
Most reactors currently in operation have a single wall containment building. The EPR has double layer containment, but the new EPR2 reactor will have single-wall prestressed concrete containment structure with a metal liner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#EPR2_des...
Also Korea’s nuclear industry as pretty far from decline:
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/khnp-sets-out-pl...
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/sites-selected-f...
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#978Earlier quoted context omitted.
And as usual the nuclear brainwashed lobby on HN still think it's 1990 and nuclear is cost effective. It can't cope with peaks. It has to generate the same power 24/7 to be anywhere near economical at two-three times the cost of solar+storage, so it either needs massive storage or massive overprovision Lets say you have a peak demand of say 40GW but average demand of 600GWh a day (25GW), or 219TWh a year Lets also sa…
Ah yes, everyone is brainwashed. Sure. We see today how non brainwashed is Germany that not only is a bad polluter but plans gas expansion to firm renewables. Nuclear requires far less overcapacity and transmission. You can cycle maintenance schedules and if country's demand is smaller, you build smaller units like Candu to make this rotation.
Take Germany for example. It requires a peak of 45GW of power and a trough of 30GW.
That means that you need 45GW running 24/7, with 10% overcapacity for maintenence, so 50GW running 247,
Nuclear's lack of dispatchability means it needs to generate 50GW to produce 35GW-days, meaning the cost per MWh is more like $150 per MWh rather than $30MWh for solar.
Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#979Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants
#980Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed, it might be said that they underestimated the cost and timescales to get the project off the ground. But this is generally the case with mega-projects. Guess we shall see how the construction of Sizewell C goes.
Isn't Sizewell c already delayed?
Citation needed. Delayed since FiD? Or since the project was originally announced? To me the latter is rather an unfair given planning permission issues and government changes.