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The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

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Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#121
post #70

Are there any battle-tested strategies for hiring that are generally known to be good, but aren't often used because it's hard or doesn't scale? Asking because my business is growing and we've gotten lucky with our hires so far, but I'd like to add my discipline to hiring well.

Ask the best people you’ve ever worked with who the best people they’ve worked with are. Recurse. When names start repeating through different graph paths, make those people an offer they can’t refuse. Once they join, ask them to do the same, and give them the budget and role to make it happen.

Unless you're hiring for rare roles that require niche skills, it's unlikely that you'll get people that are in overlapping networks. If you do, you might be encountering the problem where Company A has a bunch of people that used to work at Company B. Now Company A is just an "old boys club" from Company B and is biased towards their old colleagues.

If you ask for single referrals, how do you combat the problem of people just recommended people based on friendships and not actually work quality?

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#122
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes the other way as well though. Companies are increasingly filtering resumes/candidates in a sufficiently aggressive fashion to the point that they're strongly incentivizing, if not actively selecting for, people that are gaming the system in some way or another. Quite odd this is all happening when ostensibly the unemployment rate is very low, which should make it an employee's market.

> Companies are increasingly filtering resumes/candidates in a sufficiently aggressive fashion to the point that they're strongly incentivizing, if not actively selecting for, people that are gaming the system in some way or another. The gaming of the system has been happening for a very long time. When I was a teen looking for my first job, companies were being flooded by resumes due to cheap laser printing (either…

People don't trust people they just met anymore. The person who walked up could be a murderer. They would rather filter them through ai first or common networks.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#123
post #36

I'm responsible for hiring junior C++ developers in a small company (first role). Let met tell you that almost all candidates are stating "medium" level in C++ in their resume but don't even know how to work with pointers or references, they don't even have the level of someone studying the language for half a day. And I don't even think it's related to AI. Whatever the reason, it's very easy to assert a candidate co…

When I first tried to get a job, I listed three categories of skills: the ones I'm very confident in, the ones I have some experience with, and the niche ones I only dabbled in. The overwhelming advice, from everyone around me, was to never-ever admit that I'm not perfect at something. I found it perplexing, but after a decade or so, I started having to read resumes, and, indeed, I found almost nobody ever admitting they're not an absolute wizard at everything they put on their resumes. Before starting work at a company, I had this naive idea that HR and candidates are there to help each other, and that approaching it with honesty and goodwill is how it should work. Needless to say, it doesn't work that way at all - on both ends. I'm honestly frightened that I will maybe have to go through the hiring process again at some point, especially since my career turned adult and now my "years of experience" are a dead weight of "you're just old"... The whole process is so antagonistic, so brutal and stressful, that I can see myself going full YOLO and just spamming AI-slop resumes until I get an interview, in which - I want to believe - I'll be able to actually say something about myself and, hopefully, convince the interviewer that I can do the job. I know that would have made the whole situation a bit worse (and I'm sorry if I end up resorting to strategies like that), but the emotional burden of dealing with the "hiring process" before an actual face-to-face talk is so great I don't think I could bear it for long.

> Whatever the reason, it's very easy to assert a candidate competency with a 30 minutes to an hour interview in person.

It's not always that easy. Yes; there's a fraction of programmers who cannot code, and yes, it's usually possible to tell them apart with a FizzBuzz-style question. However, the vast majority will have some skill, and testing the limits of that skill (again, assuming we can't just expect the candidate to ever say "no, I'm weak in this-or-that area") in a limited time of an interview is hard at least on two counts: misunderstandings/communication problems instead of skill problems, and the need to wrap the obviously confrontational (instead of cooperative; it would be the latter if we could be honest with each other, but that's a pipe dream) process into something that doesn't look confrontational on the surface. It's indeed a "hiring theatre", and you need pretty solid acting skills and some psychology to pull it off as an interviewer. Of course, very few interviewers have the required combination of knowledge and skill; in effect, over the past year, I was able to form an opinion (good or bad, but at least an informed one) about the candidate's skills maybe half the time. In the other 50% of cases, I just couldn't pry any info about the actual skills from a candidate. It's like they're saying: "hire me if you want to see my cards" - and honestly, I can't even blame them too much! We're not exactly perfectly honest from our side, either, in the end...

Basically, I dread the possibility of being subjected to what has become the prevailing model of hiring in tech; I don't think I have it in me to either game the system or get good at using it, so the only thing I can count on is just dumb luck: that, at the exact time I will need it, some company will show up and either come to me directly, or will have both the process and people staffing it compatible with me by chance. If not that, I don't see myself ever getting hired again.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#124
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has always been a problem: Candidate applies with an amazing resume but then flails when you ask them questions or “can’t remember”. Yeah, but it's now 1000x worse. Before you needed actual skill (or luck) to create a good looking CV, especially for niche positions. Now you take their job description, the company's "About us" webpage, your old CV and have LLMs generate a CV with pretty solid grammar and most o…

> Before you needed actual skill (or luck) to create a good looking CV, especially for niche positions. so useless skill that says nothing about your actual fit for the job was changed for automatic half-skill that still says nothing about your actual fit for the job oh no, where are my tears?

It's astonishing how many people working in tech don't realize the impact of automation in this regard.

This basically kills any "cold job application". Now it's all back to references and nepotism. I've gotten almost all my past jobs by applying to a job I liked, someone figuring out my CV was decent and then passing interviews.

Now the same people filtering CVs have to wade through so much crap that it's almost impossible to even pass that stage.

> oh no, where are my tears?

Very likely, waiting for you in line in front of the unemployment office, 10 years from now.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#125
post #91
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you have 100 applicants and one apprentice slot.

You don’t have 100 candidates though - you likely have 90 applicants that just fail to meet the basic criteria. I hire for games and every single job posting we make for programmers we get about 10% of applicants who have literally never programmed before, even for lead level roles .

Well, these days you'll have 1000 candidates, you drop the 900 that fail to meet the basic criteria, and you're left with 100 that you can't immediately tell are frauds.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#126
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes the other way as well though. Companies are increasingly filtering resumes/candidates in a sufficiently aggressive fashion to the point that they're strongly incentivizing, if not actively selecting for, people that are gaming the system in some way or another. Quite odd this is all happening when ostensibly the unemployment rate is very low, which should make it an employee's market.

> Companies are increasingly filtering resumes/candidates in a sufficiently aggressive fashion to the point that they're strongly incentivizing, if not actively selecting for, people that are gaming the system in some way or another. The gaming of the system has been happening for a very long time. When I was a teen looking for my first job, companies were being flooded by resumes due to cheap laser printing (either…

Kind of reminiscent of the online dating market, at least for hetero relationships: From the man's point of view, he is flooding the field, swiping yes on every woman on the site, because there's a 0.0001% chance that he's matched. Consequently, from the woman's point of view, she is flooded with an absolutely huge deluge of "applicants" with nothing but blunt tools to hopelessly try to filter the garbage out. Neither side is satisfied, yet there appears to be no systematic way to improve the market. The status quo probably optimizes only the dating site's revenue at the expense of everything else being dysfunctional.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#127

> “There is a growing gap between the candidate’s written persona and their live presence. I’ll see a cover letter that is poetic and a résumé that is flawlessly structured, but then the person on the video call struggles to explain their own bullet points. This has always been a problem: Candidate applies with an amazing resume but then flails when you ask them questions or “can’t remember”. I can remember a few int…

It goes the other way as well though. Companies are increasingly filtering resumes/candidates in a sufficiently aggressive fashion to the point that they're strongly incentivizing, if not actively selecting for, people that are gaming the system in some way or another. Quite odd this is all happening when ostensibly the unemployment rate is very low, which should make it an employee's market.

It had already been like this long before widespread LLM adoption: quality hiring was only really possible through manual candidate scouting on LinkedIn, at conferences, through word of mouth, and so on.

Sending a CV had already become mostly useless 3–4 years ago because of the huge amount of noise: candidates applying from all over the world, often even spoofing their actual location, FAANGs firing, flooding the market with (in theory) great candidates with great resumes.

The solution is the same one that has been successfully used forever: a trial period.

Luckily, a video interview with a senior developer is still enough to spot a good candidate.

Go through real code: add a bug to a branch of your codebase, have the candidate share their screen on TeamViewer, and let them debug and fix the issue. Ask questions live to understand how they reason about the system, how they would test whether the change works, and so on.

This will filter out 99% of candidates. But it is still possible to get lucky, which is why the trial period matters.

I’ve never had major issues and have always hired very strong engineers. I only had to terminate someone after the trial period twice.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#128
post #75
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even need to be startups versus FANNG. I've seen first-hand how people hired into various roles aren't a great fit for roles as a company grows and changes. Of course, they can adapt to various degrees but they'd probably never have been hired for the roles they're now in. The problem with trials is that people often have a current job of some sort and having things not work out puts them in a difficult si…

> The problem with trials is that people often have a current job of some sort and having things not work out puts them in a difficult situation. May happen anyway but, generally, a new job is assumed to be at least a somewhat stable situation. Totally, and I’d never say “hey I think you might be a fit, let’s try it out for 3 months”. But if we interview someone I’m just doing my best to try and figure out do they ge…

Yeah, probationary periods are one thing. But, if I leave a job and, especially if I relocate, I want a pretty good implicit guarantee however informal that, absent a real mis-meeting of the minds I'm not going to be on the streets in three months.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#129
post #117

I don't understand why tech companies are so reluctant to go back to in-person interviews. This used to be the norm before COVID and it would solve most of these issues. It's also ironic that the authors are from Microsoft/Amazon and Meta which have very structured interviews that tend to be about just hitting the right keywords during the interview itself. None of these places even really care about what you've done…

> I don't understand why tech companies are so reluctant to go back to in-person interviews.

Tech companies probably aren’t that reluctant, but I’d bet a lot of job applicants are.

Re: The early hiring funnel is now breaking on both ends

#130
post #115
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before you needed actual skill (or luck) to create a good looking CV, especially for niche positions. Sure, resume writting is a skill, but it's probably not relevant for the position unless the position involves a lot of grant writing or enterprise sales.

Ummm.. my point was that before LLMs an utterly unqualified person would not even be able to write a decent CV. They wouldn't be in the candidate pool because they would fail at step 0. Now the village idiot can generate a reasonable CV for very complex jobs.

I have seen flawless CV from people who were bad in practice or in the interview. The interview completely changing which person looked the best was not unusual.
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