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Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

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Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#81

Post by michaelchisari »

moojacob wrote: post #53
peepee1982 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, the Western idea of Stoicism seems to focus mostly on controlling or even suppressing your emotions (at least on surface level), while the Stoicism you rightly call "Roman" (thanks for that, btw) is much more holistic and more of an ethical framework.

Stoicism in Ancient Rome was COMPLETELY about controlling your emotions, though. And in Greece it was never that big of a deal. The stoics we remember today are all Roman. Marcus Aurelius, Epicurious, Seneca. Meditations is largely Marcus Aurelius soothing himself with logical arguments. Im not doing it full justice but the passages read like “A whole is not less than its parts, Humans are intelligent, therefore the…

It was about controlling actions not emotions.

The stoics cried, they laughed, they expressed joy, they were by all accounts emotionally expressive.

The control was about what actions were to be taken in the face of those emotions and other considerations, not suppressing or controlling the emotions themselves.

It's not a small distinction.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#82

Post by quantumink »

jdw64 wrote: post #28
turzmo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would either of you have a recommendation on where to start learning about either?

Lao Tzu: Tao Te Ching (Translated Ursula K. Le Guin) The Way of Lao Tzu (Wing-tsit Chan)

Of all the translations of the Tao I've come across, none dissolved me into the flow as deeply and effortlessly as Ursula's.

I try to keep multiple copies around so I always have a couple to gift to someone...

The book is a source of primordial wisdom, boundless serenity, and transcendent signal

P.S. my encounter with it completely redefined what I considered language to be capable of communicating and distilling - inexpressible, ineffable experience... divine poetry

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#83

Post by thesmtsolver2 »

jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

The word Zen itself comes from the Sanskrit "dhyana" and "dhyana" has a wide range of meanings (and not just a singular meaning):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Hinduism

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#84

Post by Stefan-H »

josephg wrote: post #45
johndhi wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who doesn't call stoicism Roman?

The idea that "being stoic" means to be emotionless isn't a roman idea. Its a modern one.

You might need to inspect the etymology of that word and take a look at where the concept is rooted.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#85

Post by jdw64 »

colechristensen wrote: post #73
jdw64 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think everyone, to some extent, does that when they encounter something they already know. The truth is, we don't all share a unified way of thinking, and HN, being one of the most prominent Western platforms where information spreads quickly, is viewed by people from many countries. In fact, Japan, China, and Korea all have sites that curate content from here. And when you spend time here, you see a lot of differi…

In the Author's Note at the beginning of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance Persig writes >[the book] should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either. This article's title is another in a long series of meme titles of the form "Zen and the Art of...", Persig was doing it as a riff on Zen and the…

It's not that I'm saying you're wrong. So I'm not pointing out that the teacher of the author of 'Zen and the Art of Archery' founded a new religious movement and that influenced what the West calls 'Zen,' or that a particular archer's personal beliefs got mixed into what is now presented as Zen.

What I'm actually getting at is OP's Post itself is about the attitude of a researcher, and I think that attitude feels different when viewed by a Westerner versus an East Asian.

So here's the point. In your region, there is a localized culture that comes to mind when you hear the word 'Zen.' It's what people often call a pop culture phenomenon. But I don't live in your region. So when I hear 'Zen,' I have a different cultural association, and I'm simply noting that difference.

The article's topic is really about thinking within a Westernized Zen framework, and what I'm saying is, 'How would it look if we viewed it through an East Asian Zen lens?' I don't think these two are unrelated.

The problem is that from your perspective, my comments may have looked like I was insisting, 'The original is not like that! This is absolutely wrong!' And this part... well, I might have expressed it that way because I'm not fluent in English, but that was never my intention. I was just pointing out that a metaphor for research ethics in a researcher's attitude can look quite different depending on your cultural lens

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#87

Post by jjssmith »

> One really impressive thing about OpenAI is that most of the people running the company (on the technical side, at least) are under 35. Many of the important decisionmakers behind chatGPT are under 30.

During Gold Rush most 49ers were under 25, so there's still room for improvement!

[Continuing the analogy, you may find that many AI heroes are just those who happened to be closer to pools of TPUs and GPUs in the early days...]

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#88

Post by galaxyLogic »

jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

Zen I believe is about meditation where thoughts quiet down and you experience the moment. When you do, it means your brain gets rest because it is not "chasing thoughts". And that means when you stop the mediation you brain is well-rested and can work better because it can focus much better, the runaway thoughts are not leading it astray continually. That means your brain, and you, can accomplish more.

It is probably true that many Western zenists have figured this out and use meditation for that purpose. Think about star-wars, the "force" is about being able ro lift a rocket-sdhip with the power of your concentration. That's the myth.

Whereas I believe when you achieve a zen-like state of mind it becomes less important to you whether you can lift the rocket-ship or not. In the Eastern tradition Zen is it own goal.

Is this something like what you meant?

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#89

Post by jdw64 »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #88
jdw64 wrote: post #4

I feel that the Zen used in the West and the Zen in East Asia are quite different. I think the Western Zen is probably the one from the 1970s book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It usually carries a sense of equanimity and beginner's mind. But in East Asia, Zen actually emphasizes aimlessness or non‑purposefulness. The point where I really feel the difference is that Western Zen seems to be about how to t…

Zen I believe is about meditation where thoughts quiet down and you experience the moment. When you do, it means your brain gets rest because it is not "chasing thoughts". And that means when you stop the mediation you brain is well-rested and can work better because it can focus much better, the runaway thoughts are not leading it astray continually. That means your brain, and you, can accomplish more. It is probabl…

It's hard to explain, but I think it's similar. At its core, it's usually expressed like this:

Bù lì wén zì[Bulipmunja] (不立文字): The truth of enlightenment cannot be fully expressed through language or written words.

Jiào wài bié chuán[Gyoebyeoljeon] (敎外別傳): A separate transmission of truth outside the scriptures, not something acquired through formal teaching.

Zhí zhǐ rén xīn[Jikjiinsim] (直指人心): Without relying on anything else, directly look into your own mind.

Jiàn xìng chéng fó[Gyeonseongseongbul] (見性成佛): By realizing the Buddha nature already inherent within yourself, you become a Buddha yourself.

In this worldview, Buddhism sees existence as being trapped within the cycle of Samsara. Becoming a Buddha, attaining Nirvana, means escaping from that cycle. So our Zen ultimately points to something beyond life and death, a final liberation that we call Nirvana. But I'm always careful when talking about this, because putting it into words can easily lead us away from the essence itself.

Re: Zen and the Art of Machine Learning Research

#90

Post by josephg »

Stefan-H wrote: post #84
josephg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that "being stoic" means to be emotionless isn't a roman idea. Its a modern one.

You might need to inspect the etymology of that word and take a look at where the concept is rooted.

I assume you’re snipping about stoicism being Greek not Roman? I’d appreciate if you just say what you mean. I’m not your student. I’m not accepting homework assignments from a random internet commenter.
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