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"No Feigning Surprise"

wizardzines.com

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Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#21

Post by bazoom42 »

wdrw wrote: post #16
TaylorPhebillo wrote: post #5

This is a reference to one the Recurse Center's social rules: https://www.recurse.com/social-rules I was really impressed with how successful RC is at maintaining an environment where people can learn and grow. Part of that is certainly selection effects- the point of center is self directed growth around programming, and there's an interview process that I assume filters especially hostile people. But I think the so…

I always found this particular Recurse Center rule strange. I understand how not feigning surprise can be a good rule, as in you should not pretend to be surprised when you genuinely aren't. (e.g. a web front-end dev saying "I don't know how to recompile the kernel" - "What, you don't know ?!?" - when it's clear that there's no actual expectation of knowing, it's just an attempt to self-aggrandize or put the other pe…

The comic explains it better: Don’t act surprised if sombody doesn’t know something - even if you are genuinely surprised.

> I think it's generally best to be open in communicating with others

I’m pretty sure you wouldnt blurt out “you sure got fat” in a buisiness meeting, even if it genuinely was the first thought which popped into your head. Not every thought or feeling need to be communicated.

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#22

Post by cryptopian »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #7
xandrius wrote: post #3

Feels like the smushed down version of xkcd's lucky 10.000: https://xkcd.com/1053/

That seems like a more general idea, and I like it more. For the last 5 or so decades we've been transitioning from a world where everyone watches the same 4 TV channels to a world where everyone is in their own niche, and the tendency to be surprised that someone doesn't know about some cultural phenomenon is directly proportional to age. The way boomers gape and stutter when I said I don't know much about The Beatl…

In software too, it feels like there's been a shift to a more individualistic "learn-on-the-job" attitude in companies. If you're not the kind of person who knows how to structure learning a new field, it's easy to end up with big gaps when you don't know what you're looking for.

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#23

Post by akerl_ »

wdrw wrote: post #16
TaylorPhebillo wrote: post #5

This is a reference to one the Recurse Center's social rules: https://www.recurse.com/social-rules I was really impressed with how successful RC is at maintaining an environment where people can learn and grow. Part of that is certainly selection effects- the point of center is self directed growth around programming, and there's an interview process that I assume filters especially hostile people. But I think the so…

I always found this particular Recurse Center rule strange. I understand how not feigning surprise can be a good rule, as in you should not pretend to be surprised when you genuinely aren't. (e.g. a web front-end dev saying "I don't know how to recompile the kernel" - "What, you don't know ?!?" - when it's clear that there's no actual expectation of knowing, it's just an attempt to self-aggrandize or put the other pe…

The Recurse Center, and Julia Evans, have correctly identified that it's a net negative social practice for people to on-the-fly decide that somebody needs to be mocked for not knowing something, regardless of how much you think they ought to know it.

Even your "calm" version probably doesn't need to exist. If there's something they want to do and they're asking you about how to do it, by all means, it may be relevant to tell them that learning a new thing would potentially help them.

Otherwise maybe worry less about what other people should or shouldn't know.

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#24

Post by chao- »

bazoom42 wrote: post #21
wdrw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found this particular Recurse Center rule strange. I understand how not feigning surprise can be a good rule, as in you should not pretend to be surprised when you genuinely aren't. (e.g. a web front-end dev saying "I don't know how to recompile the kernel" - "What, you don't know ?!?" - when it's clear that there's no actual expectation of knowing, it's just an attempt to self-aggrandize or put the other pe…

The comic explains it better: Don’t act surprised if sombody doesn’t know something - even if you are genuinely surprised. > I think it's generally best to be open in communicating with others I’m pretty sure you wouldnt blurt out “you sure got fat” in a buisiness meeting, even if it genuinely was the first thought which popped into your head. Not every thought or feeling need to be communicated.

EDIT: Removed my comment, as I was referencing the HN article's link. It seems to incorrectly link to a separate comic that is coincidentally also about "surprise".

I agree with bazoom42 in the context of the correct comic:

https://wizardzines.com/comics/no-feigning-surprise/

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#25

Post by Aurornis »

wdrw wrote: post #16
TaylorPhebillo wrote: post #5

This is a reference to one the Recurse Center's social rules: https://www.recurse.com/social-rules I was really impressed with how successful RC is at maintaining an environment where people can learn and grow. Part of that is certainly selection effects- the point of center is self directed growth around programming, and there's an interview process that I assume filters especially hostile people. But I think the so…

I always found this particular Recurse Center rule strange. I understand how not feigning surprise can be a good rule, as in you should not pretend to be surprised when you genuinely aren't. (e.g. a web front-end dev saying "I don't know how to recompile the kernel" - "What, you don't know ?!?" - when it's clear that there's no actual expectation of knowing, it's just an attempt to self-aggrandize or put the other pe…

I agree that the phrasing is not semantically perfect for covering all scenarios. Someone might be showing true surprise.

However, the rule is really about not doing something that makes others feel bad about not knowing something or asking questions, like you said. The “No feigning surprise” phase has been a perfect hook to get people to read and understand what it means.

In some environments, feigning or exaggerating surprise really is abused as a social status and hierarchy establishment trick. Those who use the trick are trying to turn a question or gap on someone’s knowledge into an opening to elevate their own status, often in front of others. If you haven’t seen this trick used (abused) then you’re lucky. In my academic and early career I was in some environments where not knowing something was an invitation for the vultures to circle and try to turn the situation into a show of their superiority on some imagined social hierarchy. It sucks. I suspect the Recurse Center introduced this rule after having a person or batch of participants who started doing this, because it’s really toxic when it is normalized.

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#26

Post by cryptopian »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #12
akerl_ wrote: post #2

Did you mean to link to https://wizardzines.com/comics/no-feigning-surprise/

I think there's an xkcd, with the same thing. I really enjoy sharing a planet with Ms. Evans. She seems to be a genuinely decent person, and we could always use more of those.

I really enjoyed her talk "Making Difficult Things Easy"[1]. She's got a real talent for taking complex technical subjects, recognising the difficulties in understanding them, and explaining them back in a friendly way that doesn't mystify them. Almost the opposite of the modern IT industry.

[1] https://jvns.ca/blog/2023/10/06/new-talk--making-hard-things...

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#27

Post by Chaosvex »

Aurornis wrote: post #25
wdrw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found this particular Recurse Center rule strange. I understand how not feigning surprise can be a good rule, as in you should not pretend to be surprised when you genuinely aren't. (e.g. a web front-end dev saying "I don't know how to recompile the kernel" - "What, you don't know ?!?" - when it's clear that there's no actual expectation of knowing, it's just an attempt to self-aggrandize or put the other pe…

I agree that the phrasing is not semantically perfect for covering all scenarios. Someone might be showing true surprise. However, the rule is really about not doing something that makes others feel bad about not knowing something or asking questions, like you said. The “No feigning surprise” phase has been a perfect hook to get people to read and understand what it means. In some environments, feigning or exaggerati…

"has been a perfect hook to get people to read and understand what it means"

"Joke's on you. I worded it poorly intentionally!"

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#28

Post by isoprophlex »

akerl_ wrote: post #23
wdrw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found this particular Recurse Center rule strange. I understand how not feigning surprise can be a good rule, as in you should not pretend to be surprised when you genuinely aren't. (e.g. a web front-end dev saying "I don't know how to recompile the kernel" - "What, you don't know ?!?" - when it's clear that there's no actual expectation of knowing, it's just an attempt to self-aggrandize or put the other pe…

The Recurse Center, and Julia Evans, have correctly identified that it's a net negative social practice for people to on-the-fly decide that somebody needs to be mocked for not knowing something, regardless of how much you think they ought to know it. Even your "calm" version probably doesn't need to exist. If there's something they want to do and they're asking you about how to do it, by all means, it may be relevan…

Indeed. There's nothing lost by rephrasing that to "Aha, good to know that you have not heard of CSS before! That means I will explain you some basics first, otherwise x and y will be incomprehensible to you."

Re: "No Feigning Surprise"

#29

Post by thror8494jr »

Maybe it sounds like major redflag? It sounds a bit manipulative. People use it to lie and to get out of out of their obligations?

Typical "feighning suprise" is with pet attack. "It does not bite". What a big suprise when it does bite, it "never did it before, did you provoke it"? Later you find that thing send 5 people to hospital, and entire street has delivery services suspended.

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