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From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

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Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#61
post #27

Would someone be able to comment on this: Why is it not possible to require websites that wish to market to children to be certified as "child safe". Such sites would be audited by an independent entity that would grant them some form of encrypted key. These could be in age bands, e.g. We do this for many other things, from toys to public venues. Parents could then set their child's device to only allow access to sit…

1. A tech solution like this is unlikely to work since kids will be highly motivated to circumvent it and will likely be more tech savvy than their parents.

2. Leaving whether or not to allow social media use up to parental discretion creates a situation where some kids get permission to use social media and the rest use it anyways because of peer pressure.

3. If tackling the problem from the side of children and parents doesn't work, you can try to address it by acting on the social media companies themselves. Unfortunately, these companies will resist any effort to make their products less addictive. Social media companies are mostly American and lobby (bribe) the U.S. government into taking punitive action against anyone who tries to tax or regulate them in a way that actually impacts their bottom line. Since you can't tax/regulate them without facing reprisals, one alternative is to ban them as ineffectually as possible. e.g. Australian kids are still using social media, so the social media companies don't really care. They may actually benefit from the cool/rebel factor their services have been granted.

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#62
post #27

Would someone be able to comment on this: Why is it not possible to require websites that wish to market to children to be certified as "child safe". Such sites would be audited by an independent entity that would grant them some form of encrypted key. These could be in age bands, e.g. We do this for many other things, from toys to public venues. Parents could then set their child's device to only allow access to sit…

The economic reality is that none of the social media websites would pass the test without a significant hit to their profits. If you want to see the long-term economic projections of a social media website without the younger market see Facebook. It's like asking tobacco companies to reduce the toxicity and addiction of their products, inevitable collapse. The reality is that the business model itself is inherently…

Even when cigarettes were smoked by ~50% of the adult population, there were restrictions on sales to children. Why can we not accept the same for websites?

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#63
post #46
post #27

Would someone be able to comment on this: Why is it not possible to require websites that wish to market to children to be certified as "child safe". Such sites would be audited by an independent entity that would grant them some form of encrypted key. These could be in age bands, e.g. We do this for many other things, from toys to public venues. Parents could then set their child's device to only allow access to sit…

This seems to be a situation where the stated problem (protect children) is different to the actual problem (surveillance). Your proposal doesn't solve the actual problem.

Surveillance of who by whom? Requiring identity disclosure guarantees surveillance.

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#64
post #56

Why not bind it to the phone itself? The phone (or a phone app) would verify you're an adult, and beyond that the website would know nothing but that 1 bit of information.

There's still the issue of how to verify the user to give them that 1 bit. The current tools do not trust the user or the user's device, because the user could lie or modify the software on their device. But once my ID leaves the device, it becomes a privacy issue. You also have the problem that every pre-2026 device no longer functions with any site that requires the 1 bit.

Isn't this already a solved issue in crypto? You just need 1 trusted website to verify your identity and sign your bit. Instead of having to trust every website.

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#65
post #6

The most important question here is not whether social media access should be banned to children. The question is whether everyone's rights should be stripped in an effort to enforce such a ban. I find this whole globally coordinated endeavor to be outrageous in its illiberality, and manipulative in its appeal to protecting children to justify these encroachments on people's rights.

Quite right. Around 2 million UK adults don't have photo ID, mostly concentrated among poorer and less educated people, and many of those have difficulty getting credit card for the same reason. The UK is violating their basic ECHR rights to freedom of speech, freedom of assocation, and the peaceful enjoyment of their property, and it's unnecessary because we already have parental controls.

I have some really bad news about the freedom of offline speech in the UK.

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#66
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also assume the "get better at parenting" folks have zero kids themselves, and likely (because HN) work directly with those technologies targeted by the governmental measures. But answering to their point, getting better at healthcare only worked when the society stepped in, also getting better at pensions, at work-life balance or gender equality. So yes, I WILL get better at parenting, namely by supporting all oth…

I'd go further (as a parent of kids of school age): It takes a village to raise a child. It's all well and good for childless techbros to say "Raise your kids" properly, and be subject to the tender mercies of the tech giants, but we stand a fighting chance if parents, schools, child development specialists etc, rally to get some common-sense controls in place. The internet is a free fire zone today. This needs to ch…

Parenting in the pre-online days was probably a lot easier: in general you know who's talking to your kids: they're probably playing in the {street,park,diner,mall} with their friends, or they're in their room listening to music or playing on {game console,PC} which are offline.

Now, kids have phones and Internet-connected devices and the whole world can reach them 24/7, and that includes a lot of creeps.

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#67

The most important question here is not whether social media access should be banned to children. The question is whether everyone's rights should be stripped in an effort to enforce such a ban. I find this whole globally coordinated endeavor to be outrageous in its illiberality, and manipulative in its appeal to protecting children to justify these encroachments on people's rights.

Which rights, exactly?

Someone in another post was claiming there was a "right" to anonymity on the internet. That was news to me.

The "rights" of my children to not be exploited by Zuckerberg and the rest of them are far more important as far as I'm concerned.

To counter the privacy nuts, no age gates and social media bans won't lead to a North Korean style government. If anything it is the antidote as children will have a chance to grow without being radicalised by the attention stealing algorithms. The Stasi in East Germany did rather well without internet age gates.

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#68
post #61
post #27

Would someone be able to comment on this: Why is it not possible to require websites that wish to market to children to be certified as "child safe". Such sites would be audited by an independent entity that would grant them some form of encrypted key. These could be in age bands, e.g. We do this for many other things, from toys to public venues. Parents could then set their child's device to only allow access to sit…

1. A tech solution like this is unlikely to work since kids will be highly motivated to circumvent it and will likely be more tech savvy than their parents. 2. Leaving whether or not to allow social media use up to parental discretion creates a situation where some kids get permission to use social media and the rest use it anyways because of peer pressure. 3. If tackling the problem from the side of children and par…

The same problem exists for almost any product that might be a risk to children, from cleaning products to "adult" literature.

Parents would be much more able to restrict the devices a child has access to (or its controls) than the websites they visit (absent website certification).

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#69
post #61
post #27

Would someone be able to comment on this: Why is it not possible to require websites that wish to market to children to be certified as "child safe". Such sites would be audited by an independent entity that would grant them some form of encrypted key. These could be in age bands, e.g. We do this for many other things, from toys to public venues. Parents could then set their child's device to only allow access to sit…

1. A tech solution like this is unlikely to work since kids will be highly motivated to circumvent it and will likely be more tech savvy than their parents. 2. Leaving whether or not to allow social media use up to parental discretion creates a situation where some kids get permission to use social media and the rest use it anyways because of peer pressure. 3. If tackling the problem from the side of children and par…

1. You can't forge a cryptographic signature

2. Fine the parents

Re: From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(This comment is addressed to peer comments, not the parent post.) It's silly to say "Get better at parenting", when parents who have no specialist training, are literally facing off against trillion-dollar companies with thousands of industrial psychologists and data scientists hell-bent on making their products as addictive and profitable as possible. There are huge information- and power asymmetries at play here.…

It's also worth noting that some of those trillion dollar companies have had staggeringly bad responses when confronted with the fact child predators are running amok on their platform. The CEO of Roblox is probably the single easiest example to point at; when confronted about his platforms issues when it comes to enabling child abuse, the first response he had was to claim that child predators were an untapped marke…

Attestation won't solve the problem of a predator also claiming to be a child, but what if attested children could only talk to friends added by the linked parent account? There are in between solutions that don't involve total surveillance.
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