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Norway is building thorium reactor

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Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#81
post #78
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>CANDU runs on natural uranium so the waste products are actually less radioactive than what we take out of the earth, as well CANDU can burn nuclear waste from light water reactors alleviating the need for Yucca mountain. There is less uranium in the waste, but there will be fission products and trans-uranium elements just like in the fuel of regular reactors. Radioactivity of uranium is hardly a problem, when deali…

Interesting, I thought the large heat sink inherent in the CANDU design essentially ensured that with no human interaction that CANDU reactors would failsafe. My understanding was such that the 'reactor' might be destroyed but the design was such that the failure cascade would not release radioactive materials outside of the containment units.

As I said, I don't know the safety systems of CANDU :)

Large heat sink buys you time to get the cooling working again. Ultimately the heat must be transferred out somehow. In modern reactor designs these systems are usually designed to passively for very long times. With CANDU's it is very likely to be the case too.

In nuclear engineering one must always consider also the chance, that not everything is working as designed (like the destroyed diesel generators and external power sources at Fukushima). PRA (Probabilistic Risk Analysis) is used for that. PRA analysis are used for detecting most vulnerable systems in a nuclear power plant and this information is used to design new safer reactor types and to update the old ones little by little to be still safer. Harsh weather, seismic activity etc. is also considered in these analysis, but sadly in Fukushima even detected vulnerabilities didn't lead to improvements in time.

Even, if everything is done as well as possible, there is still a chance (although with modern designs almost arbitrarily small) that under certain conditions all the safety systems will fail. An ultimate example of such an event, would be a 100 km meteorite smashing the plant to atoms.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#82
post #42
post #26

If I am correctly informed (would love to hear from people who are involved in the project), this project is being done in spite of the Norwegian government's stance on nuclear energy. Thor Energy and its associated researchers have tried to stir up support for thorium reserach for years now, but there has been very little support and large amount of uninformed opposition ("nu-cu-lar is baaaaaad"). A number of physic…

>nu-cu-lar is baaaaaad Nuclear is not the panacea almost every 'informed' internet citizen thinks it is. It is EXPENSIVE. Wind and hydro power are already cheaper, for example. On top of that, whilst any new nuclear power plant will take many years to produce, costs for renewables continue to fall, and, it obviously has a huge number of risks (not just 'meltdown' but costs, security, long-term storage etc). Off the t…

This is a factual disagreement, hopefully a resolvable one.

Take a look at this book by David MacKay, Cambridge physicist. He presents detailed calculations on each energy source and, despite being anti-nuclear in initial orientation, agrees by the end of the book that nuclear energy is far cheaper and more scalable than any other renewable.

http://www.withouthotair.com/

"Please don’t get me wrong: I’m not trying to be pro-nuclear. I’m just pro-arithmetic. — David MacKay"

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#83
post #68
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't uranium-based nuclear energy supposed to be very cheap, too, and then it turned out it wasn't that cheap? I worry the same will happen with thorium. Also how much safer is it? Can it be set-up just a few KM outside a city? Is there any dangerous waste to deposit at all? I do think that if we are to continue research in nuclear energy it should be based on Thorium, rather than uranium, but in the same time, I w…

Canada has already solved most of the typical nuclear problems with the CANDU design and ecosystem. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/CANDU_fue... CANDU runs on natural uranium so the waste products are actually less radioactive than what we take out of the earth, as well CANDU can burn nuclear waste from light water reactors alleviating the need for Yucca mountain. Lets look at it's meltdown profile…

Maybe yes, maybe no. Some CANDU negatives I'll chip in though: CANDU is one of the more successful vectors to creating nuclear-armed states; and it's not all that reliable - the uptime of the Bruce reactors is tolerable if you adopt a flexible definition.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#84
post #63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the "in for a penny" school of thought. A very sensible and reasonable approach to something that could affect the future of our entire species!

Don’t be so overdramatic. If we were to use modern technology we would likely no greatly increase the amount of waste, if not decrease it. The costs are already there. The costs are mostly fixed. The marginal costs are minimal. It’s in for 99 pennies, in for a pound.

Why do some people on this site immediately jump all over the rep button over disagreements?

What's wrong with just having a good old argument?

You think I said something stupid, call me an idiot and tell me why.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US had a ban on reprocessing nuclear material and the industry is currently not commercially viable. However, other countries (France and Germany) do recycle their nuclear material. This can help reduce the amount of nuclear waste. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing

That's nice and all, but "help reduce" doesn't really equal a "solution for waste storage", and does not change the fact that society, not the companies that built, run and extracted profits from these plants, will have to pay the costs (which we cannot even calculate as long as we don't even have a storage solution, which makes shrugging them off even more criminal -- yeah, maybe it won't be so bad, but we shrug it…

I made a mistake about Germany (my info was from an old article) - sorry, about that. I did mentioned that it is not commercially viable (it requires government subsidies). Keep in mind that nuclear power is the backbone of France's energy needs (78.8%). I am sure they create a lot of waste - we should at least look at what they are doing to reduce their waste.

I agree that reprocessing is not a long term solution. However, we do have a lot of nuclear garbage and every little bit counts. Repossessing will slow the growth of nuclear garbage. Look at the amount that is recycled every year (paper, cans, bottles). Now imagine that in added to the current landfills.

Recycling/Reprocessing buys TIME (and so does electric cars, higher MPG, etc). The question is which will kill us first? Nuclear poisoning, climate change, or ourselves.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#86
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>nu-cu-lar is baaaaaad Nuclear is not the panacea almost every 'informed' internet citizen thinks it is. It is EXPENSIVE. Wind and hydro power are already cheaper, for example. On top of that, whilst any new nuclear power plant will take many years to produce, costs for renewables continue to fall, and, it obviously has a huge number of risks (not just 'meltdown' but costs, security, long-term storage etc). Off the t…

> Off the top of my head i think a wind farm is also more energy dense than a nuclear power plant, given all the space required around it. I checked some facts; 2W / m^2 for wind[0], 1000W / m^2 for nuclear[1]. Even if they didn't account for some infrastructure, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't decrease that number 500 times. Nuclear fission is one of the most powerful energy sources (in energy per unit of mass of fuel)…

My mistake! Clearly nuclear is far more energy dense.. memory failure. TBH i thought there would be a far greater exclusion zone around it than shown on your links (good source, btw)-- obviously fission is going to be off the scale on energy/kg of fuel.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#87
post #48
post #26

If I am correctly informed (would love to hear from people who are involved in the project), this project is being done in spite of the Norwegian government's stance on nuclear energy. Thor Energy and its associated researchers have tried to stir up support for thorium reserach for years now, but there has been very little support and large amount of uninformed opposition ("nu-cu-lar is baaaaaad"). A number of physic…

Wasn't uranium-based nuclear energy supposed to be very cheap, too, and then it turned out it wasn't that cheap? I worry the same will happen with thorium. Also how much safer is it? Can it be set-up just a few KM outside a city? Is there any dangerous waste to deposit at all? I do think that if we are to continue research in nuclear energy it should be based on Thorium, rather than uranium, but in the same time, I w…

Uranium fuels were never deployed because of cost or safety, they were deployed because various militaries funded the technology for use a) producing plutonium for weapons, and b) producing energy for large Navy customers.

Civilian nuclear energy based on the uranium fuel cycle is a spin off from a warfighter's R&D project.

Compare that with the thorium fuel cycle which does not produce weaponizable byproducts.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#88
post #28

For those who haven't seen it, I highly recommend this video on liquid-fluoride thorium reactors (LFTR): https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=... ! I passed the video by my uncle who was an expert/engineer dealing with control and safety of water cooled reactors. This is what he had to say: "I found the video very informative technically, as well as being effective in countering many of the the arg…

I just watched that video (2 hrs!), and I have to agree with NatW on his recommendation. Really, really well done.

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#89
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't uranium-based nuclear energy supposed to be very cheap, too, and then it turned out it wasn't that cheap? I worry the same will happen with thorium. Also how much safer is it? Can it be set-up just a few KM outside a city? Is there any dangerous waste to deposit at all? I do think that if we are to continue research in nuclear energy it should be based on Thorium, rather than uranium, but in the same time, I w…

Uranium fuels were never deployed because of cost or safety, they were deployed because various militaries funded the technology for use a) producing plutonium for weapons, and b) producing energy for large Navy customers. Civilian nuclear energy based on the uranium fuel cycle is a spin off from a warfighter's R&D project. Compare that with the thorium fuel cycle which does not produce weaponizable byproducts.

If anyone should know about funding military projects, it's a user named "politician"! :)

Re: Norway is building thorium reactor

#90
post #53
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a rational, well-informed counterargument against traditional nuclear power plants. It is not a counterargument against seed-level funding for R&D towards a completely new reactor technology, which has different economic and safety characteristics. Accelerator-based reactors, which are what have been proposed for publically-sponsored research in Norway, are a completely different beast. Yet they are tre…

> It is not a counterargument against seed-level funding for [thorium].. Nor did i ever suggest it was! (NB: 'OTOH'). > a couple of million ..would be rather 'pissing in the ocean' though on this issue, don't you think? (and thus could be considered a waste of money)

> ..would be rather 'pissing in the ocean' though on this issue, don't you think? (and thus could be considered a waste of money)

Again, as he stated. You are basing your hypothesis off of old nuclear technology. The same arguments were made against solar and wind. Many still believe it is a waste of money, yet we keep funding it. Why not also look into Thorium?

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