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Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

bluewin.ch

541–550 of 1001 posts

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The marginal cost of batteries grows more than linearly. When batteries are covering 0% of the need, the marginally added battery cycles many times, so the cost is spread over many kwh produced. When you add batteries to go from 99.98 to 99.99, the batteries cycle only for that 0.01, so the same cost to build them is spread over a much fewer kwh, making each kwh produced a lot more expensive. Seasonal storage is madn…

Per Ember Energy reports, a cost optimal new build grid is between 90% - 97% solar/wind/battery, and between 3% to 10% gas peaker depending on how much sun/wind your locale gets. But you can't replace the gas peaker with 3% or 10% nuclear because in essence that gas peaker is supplying 100% of the power 3% to 10% of the time. So you'd have to build nuclear plants that can supply 100% of the power. But once you have t…

every single one of Ember's analyses are based on historical situations. That is certainly useful, and serves to demonstrate an important point - that wind and solar make economic sense.

There is not a single analysis out there that tackles the twin problems of meeting growing electricity demand with a power source that depends on an uncertain and changing climate.

You say "occasional" dunkelflaute, but we have no idea whether occasional is once a season or once a decade.

This is exactly where nuclear shines, because although it is expensive, it insulates a country against the vagaries of external forces. Whether or not that guarantee is worth the price tag is the question a lot of governments are grappling with and they mostly seem to agree that the value is indeed worth the cost.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#542
post #32

This still has to pass with the people in a referendum. The discourse on nuclear is still quite chaotic in politics in Switzerland. All left leaning parties and greens parties are strongly against nuclear. I am not expecting informed and civil discussions about this topic. Switzerland has a summer/winter energy problem. We have lots of potential of producing energy in the spring and summer (when our dams are full fro…

Switzerland has an amazing opportunity to be the standard setter in the EU with nuclear though. The technology is so unbelievably safe and efficient these days. It a real shame to leave it all on the table because of poorly designed and managed disasters.

Switzerland is not in the EU.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#543
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding wind and mountains. Some perspective from someone from neighboring Tyrol: The reason there is so little wind power: Probably the same reason the western, alpine parts of Austria have basically zero wind power - and why neighbouring Carinthia recently voted in a referendum to ban it completely. People who live in the Alps generally don't like seeing the mountains altered. It is treated almost as sacrilege. A…

Also wind turbines kill birds and bats, it is an actual problem to be put in the balance. The balance being: do you build a ton of those turbines, or one nuclear plant?

no, this is not an "actual" problem. It is a problem in the sense that it happens, but not at a meaningful enough scale.

The bats and birds is an issue that the oil and gas industry regularly pushes because it sounds concerning, but really isn't.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand the waste problem is tremendously overblown. Move it to some storage facility somewhere, that's fine. Just keep it on site, that's fine too. A typical gigawatt reactor produces about 20 tons of waste annually, which sounds like a lot but remember this stuff is quite dense, so it would actually take 4 years to fill up a standard shipping container. The storage units for this stuff is incredibly…

I find this to be the most frustrating aspect of the nuclear discourse. The "waste problem" is technically solved (we believe, gotta wait ~10k years to know) in a way that depends on a social solution that doesn't seem to exist. Pro-nuke people will handwave it away, ignoring the total failure to secure storage sites in most places, and the anti-nuclear people treat it as a fatal flaw in the technology (which it isn'…

> I find this to be the most frustrating aspect of the nuclear discourse. The "waste problem" is technically solved (we believe, gotta wait ~10k years to know)

It's not a 10k year problem, it's a ~300 year problem, after which most of it is at the same level as natural uranium ore; and the stuff that isn't can be blocked via aluminium foil (to stop beta particles).

The first 10-20 years post-removal are the most dangerous, and why the fuel is kept in cooling ponds. From 10-300 you still have danger, but that is manageable with concrete casts:

* https://xcancel.com/MadiHilly/status/1671491294831493120

* https://xcancel.com/ParisOrtizWines/status/11951849706139361...

Once you're past the ~300 year mark, all the most dangerous isotopes have burned away, and you're at point where the main ways of getting ill from what remains is by either eating the pellets or grinding them up and snorting the powder like cocaine.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland has an amazing opportunity to be the standard setter in the EU with nuclear though. The technology is so unbelievably safe and efficient these days. It a real shame to leave it all on the table because of poorly designed and managed disasters.

Do you trust that any of today's politicians will not be poor at nuclear reactor design and management?

> Do you trust that any of today's politicians will not be poor at nuclear reactor design and management?

As someone who lives in Ontario, Canada, where 50% of all electricity currently comes from nuclear power:

* https://www.ieso.ca/power-data?type=supply

I have no problem with getting more CANDU reactors (which is the current plan).

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#546
post #32

This still has to pass with the people in a referendum. The discourse on nuclear is still quite chaotic in politics in Switzerland. All left leaning parties and greens parties are strongly against nuclear. I am not expecting informed and civil discussions about this topic. Switzerland has a summer/winter energy problem. We have lots of potential of producing energy in the spring and summer (when our dams are full fro…

You could build the reactors inside the mountains to improve the security and effects of things like meltdowns.

Sure, but it makes cooling extremely difficult. And due to the confined environment any kind of incident response is needlessly difficult.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European car manufacturers have been given every opportunity and encouragement to build EVs and the phrase "dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century" springs to mind. People are buying BYD because they're better cars, not because they're forced to.

I mean, it's their industrial base. They can do what they want with it. I can just tell you as a person from the Midwestern US that the whole "we'll get lower prices that justify unemploying a bunch of people" doesn't work out like they said it would, and that empowering a potential geopolitical rival doesn't really help either.

"we'll get lower prices that justify unemploying a bunch of people"

isn't this proven to be true? better for the country, worse for a small amount of directly affected people?

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#548
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time this argument comes up, “it’s too slow and expensive “, I ask that person to please explain to me how my home country Sweden managed to build all those reactors in the 70s and 80s both fast and cheap? They’ve been amazing for us, despite the fact that some of them was recklessly shutdown prematurely by an ignorant political class.

What counts as "fast and cheap" ? For the renewables "Fast and cheap" turns out to mean you get the paperwork in the winter and you build a solar farm that summer, it's not quite sowing wheat - teams of competent people building the farm isn't the same thing as just chucking the seeds into the dirt with a machine, but the timeframe isn't so different. Sweden's nuclear plants seem to have taken maybe 6+ years from bre…

Utility-scale solar projects in California are experiencing interconnection delays averaging 3 to 5 years, primarily due to grid congestion, slow utility study pipelines, and aging substation equipment.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#549
post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the federal government could have just bought one of the many mines that no longer produces, right? Why hasn't that happened? Because the topic is politically contentious. It doesn't matter which new site is floated or who proposes it when there's effectively blind opposition without regard to technical merit. The reality is that for any objectively defined risk metric we can come up with a solution that involves b…

"At some depth it ceases to matter despite what the activists seem to think." Yes, but to be really safe, that point might be so low, it becomes really expensive, also getting it all there without accident - which is the whole point, of course radioactive waste can be treated safe and sound - but that is expensive and people and companies and governments are known to be sloppy.

Sure but the limited volume really puts an upper bound on the expense. You could package it in containers small enough for a single person to carry and then have people individually walk them down to the bottom of the mponeng mine and it would still be reasonably affordable.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#550
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only expensive and brittle because environmentalists have choked it to death. They’re the third biggest villains of climate change, after consumers and oil companies. If the whole developed world had nuclearized the way France did, our discussions about climate change would be entirely different. We would have decades more runway to avoid 2C+ scenarios. We would have already electrified vast swaths of the econom…

> It’s only expensive and brittle because environmentalists have choked it to death. The only reason why "environmentalists" were able to influence the debate around nuclear is because nuclear is uneconomical and studded with actual, real problems. Look at fossil fuels. Environmentally and in terms of public health it is way worse than nuclear (at least a current respective buildout levels). And environmentalists hav…

> "Cheap nuclear" is a pipe dream that has never been realized. Not even Chinese nuclear (no environmentalists there) is anywhere near as cheap as solar.

In Ontario, Canada, 50% of all power comes from nuclear and costs CAD 0.12/kWh (USD 0.08/kWh); see Table 2:

* https://www.oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-2025...

On the spectrum from "cheap" to expensive, where would that fall?

For many years it was actually cheaper than (methane/natural) gas:

* https://www.oeb.ca/sites/default/files/rpp-price-report-2023...

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