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How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

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Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#161

Post by anovikov »

HEmanZ wrote: post #150
anovikov wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand housing construction, but why would a NIMBY be against metro construction? Being close to a metro station means real estate prices skyrocket and that's what NIMBYs are after.

Have you not met Americans? The very first thing 95% of Americans will say if you propose public transport closer to their house is that you are bringing crime. Also if the transit comes close then someone might build condos or apartments near it! Oh the horror! I had a lady parade around my neighborhood handing out fliers saying that extending the bus stop to our neighborhood was going to bring rapists and pedophile…

Sounds like, solution is "company towns" where everything is built by giant mega-corporation, completely greenfield, and nothing is sold - just rented out.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#162

Post by BrenBarn »

The part about political accountability made me kind of chuckle.

> The PP candidate for Assembly President, Alberto Ruiz-Gallardón, promised to deliver 30 new miles (48 kilometers) of metro by the next election, compared to the 14 miles (23 kilometers) the PSOE had delivered during their previous 15 years in government. With this pledge, the PP won a majority and Ruiz-Gallardón was duly elected president.

It's hard to see that working in the US, even if we eliminated the jurisdictional patchworks, because what will happen is one candidate will promise 1000 miles and the other will propose destroying existing infrastructure, but they'll also make competing promises on homelessness, affordability, and various culture war issues, while jockeying for supremacy in media prominence, and then whichever one gets elected will build 0 miles and say it was somehow the other one's fault. It's just hard to imagine any sizable electorate in the US actually voting based on an issue like how quickly and cheaply public transportation is built. If we had the kind of people who care about stuff like that, we wouldn't have the problems we have.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#163

Post by alephnerd »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #160
alephnerd wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It slows down SEZ creation as well, becuase an SEZ needs land, which forces state planning commissions to deal with the LARR headache, but at least it's state governments that are facing the headache instead of businesses. It also prevents the development of mass dormitories for migrant workers in factories, which is the de facto model adopted across Asia. > the system descends into things being built on politician o…

In tamil nadu atleast, building housing for workers nearby the workplace is not the part that causes issues. The way it typically happens is that the business bears the costs, and at the least gets to do the maintenance contract themselves. And the state government provides security (especially when its a lot of women workers) and other utility services. Fairly smooth. The issue primarily is in the earlier negotiatio…

> From my weak knowledge of asian countries, I think they took up, loosely speaking, individualistic capitalism

Not really based on my personal experience on the ground.

The main difference was light authoritarianism. India has too much democracy at the local level, where any wannabe neta can block a project by building a Mandir/Masjid or naarabazi-ing "laal salam" or "Jai bhim".

When demolitions and urban renewal projects are executed in China, Korea, Taiwan, or Japan the full might of the system is used to push it through. No PILs or human interest media stories slow down those demolitions and urban renewals. If they need to crack heads or break a few legs, they will.

India under Indira used to be able to execute at such frequency, but then the counter-reaction in the 1980s and 1990s led to India neutering it's eminent domain laws.

TN historically worked because if I wanted a factory built, I knew who to call in the DMK and they would get land and permitting completed in a single window. It's the same in Telangana, Andhra, Maharashtra, Gujarat, and Haryana. UP and Chhattisgarh have also started to operate in that manner too. You used to be able to do that in Karnataka but the politics changed in 2021.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#164

Post by rangestransform »

rr808 wrote: post #3

A lot of the price difference between Europe and USA now are wages. US wages for construction workers in NYC or SF are 2 or 3 times that of Madrid. Lots of things are cheap just for this reason alone.

Not only are the wages higher, the unions insist on hiring 3x the number of necessary staff (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...)

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#165

Post by porridgeraisin »

alephnerd wrote: post #163
porridgeraisin wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In tamil nadu atleast, building housing for workers nearby the workplace is not the part that causes issues. The way it typically happens is that the business bears the costs, and at the least gets to do the maintenance contract themselves. And the state government provides security (especially when its a lot of women workers) and other utility services. Fairly smooth. The issue primarily is in the earlier negotiatio…

> From my weak knowledge of asian countries, I think they took up, loosely speaking, individualistic capitalism Not really based on my personal experience on the ground. The main difference was light authoritarianism. India has too much democracy at the local level, where any wannabe neta can block a project by building a Mandir/Masjid or naarabazi-ing "laal salam" or "Jai bhim". When demolitions and urban renewal pr…

> The main difference was light authoritarianism. India has too much democracy at the local level, where any wannabe neta can block a project

Makes sense. In some ways, the opposite problem also exists. The municipalities dont have much money/power and are de-facto just a branch of the state govt and a neglected one at that. Cause of many urban infra issues.

> TN historically worked because if I wanted a factory built, I knew who to call in the DMK and they would get land and permitting completed in a single window

Yep, this is the kind of thing I alluded to up-thread.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#166

Post by tormeh »

nephihaha wrote: post #55
tormeh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visited China recently and it's pretty astonishing what can be achieved if you just ignore the whiners, complainers, environmentalists, and local governments. NIMBYs? Get lost. Have unique local culture? Funny but no. There's a special kind of beetle living there? Tough shit. It's ugly? So is your face. Etc. This is how the West built its infrastructure back in the day - nobody consulted NIMBYs or the native American…

The problem with the Chinese system is when there are genuine engineering problems then people are afraid to voice them. p.s. I don't think Native Americans are a factor in most of the west except Canada and the USA.

True, but it's a provocative and widely understood example. Some things are lost in steamrolling everyone, basically, but it's still not a mistake.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#167

Post by ak217 »

eitally wrote: post #130
ak217 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many years, I observed the San Francisco Caltrain DTX (Downtown Extension, recently rebranded "The Portal"). This is the most important transit missing link in Northern California that is expected to connect two of the highest ridership transit arteries in the Bay Area and eventually unlock single-seat rail transit between Sacramento, San Francisco, San Jose, and points south. DTX is a two-mile tunnel planned to…

100% agree on all points! And moreover, CHRSRA, while it is certainly delayed and over budget, appears to be a fairly well-run program with delays due primarily to external issues created by state & local government. It doesn't help that it receives nearly universal bad press, but I think that'll change by next year as they start laying track [connecting the stations and above grade crossings that have been long buil…

I don't think CHSRA is a well-run program.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#168

Post by frollogaston »

anovikov wrote: post #161
HEmanZ wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not met Americans? The very first thing 95% of Americans will say if you propose public transport closer to their house is that you are bringing crime. Also if the transit comes close then someone might build condos or apartments near it! Oh the horror! I had a lady parade around my neighborhood handing out fliers saying that extending the bus stop to our neighborhood was going to bring rapists and pedophile…

Sounds like, solution is "company towns" where everything is built by giant mega-corporation, completely greenfield, and nothing is sold - just rented out.

Plenty of those exist in the US too, with public transit. The people complaining about NIMBYs can live there, but they don't. They're more popular among younger people without kids.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#169

Post by frollogaston »

jmyeet wrote: post #21

In 1968, Garrett Hardin wrote a paper called "The Tragedy of the Commons" [1]. Many people seem to think this term dates further back to Adam Smith or earlier it does not. Well, this became hugely influential in noeliberalism and was used as the justification for governments to sell off their assets in the 1980s and 1990s in particular, all based on this (flawed) idea that private industry was more efficient. This wa…

tbh Santa Monica and Beverly Hills complainers were right, at least when it came to their own interests. Visit that Santa Monica metro station. Nobody getting off that train is commuting to work.

Re: How Madrid built its metro cheaply (2024)

#170

Post by frollogaston »

tormeh wrote: post #27
jmyeet wrote: post #21

In 1968, Garrett Hardin wrote a paper called "The Tragedy of the Commons" [1]. Many people seem to think this term dates further back to Adam Smith or earlier it does not. Well, this became hugely influential in noeliberalism and was used as the justification for governments to sell off their assets in the 1980s and 1990s in particular, all based on this (flawed) idea that private industry was more efficient. This wa…

Visited China recently and it's pretty astonishing what can be achieved if you just ignore the whiners, complainers, environmentalists, and local governments. NIMBYs? Get lost. Have unique local culture? Funny but no. There's a special kind of beetle living there? Tough shit. It's ugly? So is your face. Etc. This is how the West built its infrastructure back in the day - nobody consulted NIMBYs or the native American…

China will also acid-wash land to extract rare earths. It does achieve what they wanted though.
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