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Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

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Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#201

Post by supertroop »

jokteur wrote: post #32

This still has to pass with the people in a referendum. The discourse on nuclear is still quite chaotic in politics in Switzerland. All left leaning parties and greens parties are strongly against nuclear. I am not expecting informed and civil discussions about this topic. Switzerland has a summer/winter energy problem. We have lots of potential of producing energy in the spring and summer (when our dams are full fro…

I wouldn’t pin the irrational discourse on the left. Pro nuclear people are just as k=1 thinkers as well. We just need long term policy not short term panic.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#202

Post by LinXitoW »

rayiner wrote: post #164
esarbe wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also incredibly expensive and brittle and cannot be moderated without additional costs[1]. At this point nuclear is just a dead horse. It hasn't managed to displace fossil fuels in over 70 years - a feat that renewables have done within 20 years. Nuclear is too slow and too expensive. https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/climate-energy/france...

It’s only expensive and brittle because environmentalists have choked it to death. They’re the third biggest villains of climate change, after consumers and oil companies. If the whole developed world had nuclearized the way France did, our discussions about climate change would be entirely different. We would have decades more runway to avoid 2C+ scenarios. We would have already electrified vast swaths of the econom…

So its really safe, but also the evil regulations make it expensive. I'm certain there's ZERO correlation between regulations that make it expensive and regulations making it safe....................

So, where is the free market shitting out nuclear power? Anywhere?

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#203

Post by ahtihn »

jokteur wrote: post #46
alephnerd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The discourse on nuclear is still quite chaotic in politics in Switzerland Does discourse from neighboring countries leak in as well? For example, German and Italian media's anti-nuclear sentiment versus French media's neutral to vaguely positive sentiment about nuclear.

French part of Switzerland is much more left leaning, so I can expect more anti-nuclear sentiment on this side. But the sentiment of nuclear depends purely on which party you vote for, I don't think the language itself has an impact. But, Germany's decision after Fukushima to close down all nuclear reactors has had a strong impact on the 2017 votation that banned nuclear in Switzerland. So I guess the influence is th…

> But the sentiment of nuclear depends purely on which party you vote for, I don't think the language itself has an impact.

People aren't really partisan like that in Switzerland. They'll happily elect people from one party then vote against the party on specific issues in referendums or initiatives.

For something like nuclear, people who vote for green party might be mostly aligned with the party because it's a key issue for them while people who vote for center or right parties won't really care what the party recommends.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#204

Post by ponector »

UltraSane wrote: post #175
jltsiren wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political will is not the actual bottleneck. Finland has given the initial permit for three nuclear reactors in the past 25 years. One was eventually built after massive delays and cost overruns. Another was canceled, because the company chosen to build it first proved to be incompetent and later also politically undesirable. As for the third reactor, the company that got the permit determined that it makes more sens…

China and South Korea can build nuclear reactors cheaply.

There is no such thing as cheap nuclear reactor. Even cheaper Chernobyl type is expensive to build.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#205

Post by TimorousBestie »

esarbe wrote: post #186
rayiner wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only expensive and brittle because environmentalists have choked it to death. They’re the third biggest villains of climate change, after consumers and oil companies. If the whole developed world had nuclearized the way France did, our discussions about climate change would be entirely different. We would have decades more runway to avoid 2C+ scenarios. We would have already electrified vast swaths of the econom…

Ah, yes - "the evil environmentalists." Congratulations, you really torched that straw man. We stopped building nuclear reactors in the early 1970ies[0], long before there was any large organized civil movement organizing against it - because with the required additional complexity to make them safe, the technology was just too expensive. (As always - it's the capitalists that messed things up, not civil society.) De…

> Congratulations, you really torched that straw man.

Who are we to begrudge a man his decade-long windmills-tilting: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#206

Post by pydry »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #196
pydry wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>environmentalists have choked it to death. Those regulations you despise were written in blood. Moreover, Nuclear power enjoys free catastrophe insurance. If a Fukushima style meltdown happens, the taxpayer is always on the hook for 95%+ of the cleanup costs. So yeah, all you have to do is let them keep their freebie insurance, lavish them with subsidies and water down the regulations which make it vastly more likel…

> If a Fukushima style meltdown happens, the taxpayer is always on the hook for 95%+ of the cleanup costs. An apt reference. In both India and China it was the Fukushima disaster that spurred protests and stalled nuclear power growth. Organized environmental activism in both countries is basically nonexistent. I would rank US-led nonproliferation policies above environmental activism as a cause for slow nuclear adopt…

The effect environmentalists have on adoption is a rounding error compared to the humongous cost of nuclear power.

Most non nuclear powers have a few for the same reason Iran does: having some nuclear scientists and a developed nuclear industry around is handy in case of a, uh, geopolitical "emergency". This is why Poland suddenly became interested in 2023 specifically.

Most countries do not want a lot though - it's too expensive.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#207

Post by zchrykng »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #156
well_ackshually wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you'll be so happy about being price competitive when the conditions are bad for like a week and the country just doesn't run (or rely on other countries price gouging you for what your country needs to exist.) Opposing nuclear & renewables is stupid. You need both. You need as many power sources as you can, as quick as you can while the resources are available. Energy is not something you leave up to the invisible h…

> You need both Why do you need both? It's possible to get 99.99% reliability with wind & solar & batteries & weather modelling. There are multiple ways to handle a week long dankelflaute without nuclear: overbuilding, continental scale distribution, lots of batteries, etc. All are cheaper than nuclear. It's also virtually impossible to get more than 99.99% reliability out of any grid, even a nuclear dominated one. L…

How much do those batteries cost and can they supply power for multiple days or a season if your renewable sources aren't providing like normal?

Not to mention the environmental damage from producing and disposing of batteries.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#208

Post by BurningFrog »

yulker wrote: post #177
lopis wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's not part of the EU as a member, Switzerland is quite literally in the EU.

Just the opposite. It's literally not in the EU. It's literally in Europe but not in the EU.

OP was making a geometric observation.

Re: Swiss parliament lifts ban on new nuclear power plants

#210

Post by TimorousBestie »

pydry wrote: post #206
TimorousBestie wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a Fukushima style meltdown happens, the taxpayer is always on the hook for 95%+ of the cleanup costs. An apt reference. In both India and China it was the Fukushima disaster that spurred protests and stalled nuclear power growth. Organized environmental activism in both countries is basically nonexistent. I would rank US-led nonproliferation policies above environmental activism as a cause for slow nuclear adopt…

The effect environmentalists have on adoption is a rounding error compared to the humongous cost of nuclear power. Most non nuclear powers have a few for the same reason Iran does: having some nuclear scientists and a developed nuclear industry around is handy in case of a, uh, geopolitical "emergency". This is why Poland suddenly became interested in 2023 specifically. Most countries do not want a lot though - it's…

I agree, I also believe the overall startup cost and low ROI is more relevant than the occasional tree-hugger’s limited political influence.
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