Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College • Hacker News Board

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#81

Post by malandrew » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 5:16 AM UTC

shadowfiend wrote: post #18

And the pendulum swings back. While there are differences, fundamentally the proposition of mentors, internship-based learning, and living on site is not that different from apprenticeships. There's a wider exposure to ideas, perhaps (because maybe you jump between internships instead of staying with one), but at its most basic level the proposed idea is training people to do jobs instead of trying to expand their th…

You say that universities provide learners with a wider exposure to ideas. I don't doubt that this was true in the hundreds of years that universities have existed. However, up until 1989, universities basically had a monopoly on a place where it is easy to be exposed to many ideas. Since TBL invented the www, and hyperlinks became commonplace, it's never been easier to be exposed to ideas. It's far easier to come across new ideas on the internet than in any university in the world. All you need to be exposed to thousands of ideas is hyperlinks and intellectual curiosity.

The only feature that university has that the internet doesn't is a curriculum required to get a degree. However a required curriculum without intellectual curiosity isn't worth much. A required curriculum with intellectual curiosity is worth something. But now with phenomena like Wikipedia and MMOC's and a generation that has grown up online, the internet is most certainly overtaking universities.

I'm 30 years old and were I to do it again, I wouldn't go to university. I'm know I'm not alone in this sentiment, but I also know this isn't yet a majority sentiment. I expect a significant portion of the generation currently at uni that grew up with the internet to feel this regret when they are 30.

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#82

Post by eshvk » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 10:18 AM UTC

svachalek wrote: post #59

shadowfiend wrote: post #18

And the pendulum swings back. While there are differences, fundamentally the proposition of mentors, internship-based learning, and living on site is not that different from apprenticeships. There's a wider exposure to ideas, perhaps (because maybe you jump between internships instead of staying with one), but at its most basic level the proposed idea is training people to do jobs instead of trying to expand their th…

You're forgetting the university as a place to get drunk, get high, get laid, and play football which appear to be pretty high priorities for many if not most students. You're also forgetting the university as a rubber-stamp credential, an exclusive mark of membership into a particular subgroup of people we like to allow into our other particular subgroups, which from my anecdotal experience is the #1 reason parents…

> You're forgetting the university as a place to get drunk, get high, get laid, and play football which appear to be pretty high priorities for many if not most students.

So...? While these may not be my priorities, people who are paying through their nose to go to these schools are welcome to have other priorities. The thing is that just as elsewhere in life, there are people who would like to do different things with their money, I love the American experiment because it lets you do whatever you want with your money.

> You're also forgetting the university as a rubber-stamp credential, an exclusive mark of membership into a particular subgroup of people we like to allow into our other particular subgroups, which from my anecdotal experience is the #1 reason parents want their kids to go to college.

Uhhh...This is exactly how society works. Everyone makes first order approximations based on certain metrics. Hell, there are people out there who approximate based on the fact that you have a social media profile, have worked for google and play video games (Yes, even nerds ). The fact of the matter is that it is incredibly hard to judge people (Professionally and Personally) which is why we use these markers and throwing away universities is not going to make the markers themselves go away.

> The university as a "place of higher learning" was created back when monks copied every book by hand. I think the way we've managed to gold-plate all of the more modern and typical reasons for college with this lofty image thousands of years later is pretty impressive. By now I think we can probably come up with much better/cheaper forms of "higher learning" but I suspect too much of society depends on keeping it where it is.

I feel like what people are really looking for are tech shops that teach you how to do software engineering. Those are cheaper, more effective in teaching you how to do that specific task. The problem is that Universities are inherently designed to be a place where you are encouraged to make mistakes in the hope that you eventually get lucky and move humanity forward (This is the "higher learning" bit).

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#83

Post by mbesto » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 1:33 PM UTC

xal wrote: post #74

shadowfiend wrote: post #18

And the pendulum swings back. While there are differences, fundamentally the proposition of mentors, internship-based learning, and living on site is not that different from apprenticeships. There's a wider exposure to ideas, perhaps (because maybe you jump between internships instead of staying with one), but at its most basic level the proposed idea is training people to do jobs instead of trying to expand their th…

I'm founder and CEO of Shopify and I was trained via apprenticeship. Germany has the brilliant dual education system where apprenticeships have never ceased to exist and It's the true driver behind Germany's incredible performance recently. After 10th grade I left high shool and joined a company ( Siemens ) "full time" as a trainee. This means that 4 days of the week you work and 1 day you go to vocational school whe…

Culturally speaking, America does not necessarily incentivize merit as much as Germany (and Europe) for that matter. We are a nation of marketers and salespeople, which means: (1) personal networks are key and (2) ability to sell is key. Our cultural is built on the ability to control hyperbole and attention fulfillment (bureaucracy) as opposed to hard work (meritocracy). The skills you learn in personal networks (mostly social) in American universities are much more valuable than the ones attained from apprenticeships. In the HN/SV bubble view of the world, this is may not seem true, but largely outside of that bubble it is.

Therefore, what you are looking to do is make a massive cultural shift, not just fix a system. The best way you can fix our system is to continue to make yours (Germany) better. Competition breeds motivation to do better.

note - I respect that some of my comments are very much generalized. And while I'm from the US, I do live in the UK and have lived in Germany.

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#84

Post by rmah » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 3:23 PM UTC

jfarmer wrote: post #68

therandomguy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is this: somehow we mutated universities into a place where everyone goes in order to get a job."... That is indeed fair. The parent I assume is talking about the current general perception about universities in US.

The "current general perception?" My point was more that if you ask 20 people, "What is the purpose of an education?" you'll get 20 different answers -- everything from "to get a job" to "cultivate the life of the mind."

You may believe that, but the evidence from many surveys shows that it is not true. The vast majority of students and parents really do feel that the purpose of university is to "get a [better] job".

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#85

Post by jfarmer » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 4:40 PM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #78

jfarmer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, first, this "I see universities struggling to be everything to everyone" was exactly my point. :D For some people, education is about "jobs," for others its about other things, and as a result universities have dozens of conflicting mandates. I was rejecting the idea that we've somehow converged, as a society or whatever, on a consensus that education = jobs. That was not my educational experience. That's not t…

> I'd start with Diane Ravitch's "Left Back: A Century of Battles over School Reform" I'll do that. I haven't read any of Ravitch's work directly yet, and enough time has passed since I heard her speak that I don't remember her position reliably anymore. > Start with John Dewey and William Torrey Harris (for a counterpoint to Dewey). I'm a fairly huge fan of John Dewey. I only barely hold back from calling myself a p…

I've clearly pushed some kind of button for you. I apologize.

I hope you enjoy the reading I suggested.

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#86

Post by shannonbailey78 » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 4:40 PM UTC

Just as long as I don't have to become an indentured servant to school loans I'm all in.

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#87

Post by jfarmer » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

rmah wrote: post #84

jfarmer wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "current general perception?" My point was more that if you ask 20 people, "What is the purpose of an education?" you'll get 20 different answers -- everything from "to get a job" to "cultivate the life of the mind."

You may believe that, but the evidence from many surveys shows that it is not true. The vast majority of students and parents really do feel that the purpose of university is to "get a [better] job".

You can't just say "many surveys" and leave me hanging! :D

And just so I'm clear: I wasn't speaking literally. I did not mean, for example, "Surveys show that among 20 answers to the question, each answer received 5% of the responses within X margin of error."

I realize that's a risky thing to do on HN and still be understood.

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#88

Post by redwood » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

xal wrote: post #74

shadowfiend wrote: post #18

And the pendulum swings back. While there are differences, fundamentally the proposition of mentors, internship-based learning, and living on site is not that different from apprenticeships. There's a wider exposure to ideas, perhaps (because maybe you jump between internships instead of staying with one), but at its most basic level the proposed idea is training people to do jobs instead of trying to expand their th…

I'm founder and CEO of Shopify and I was trained via apprenticeship. Germany has the brilliant dual education system where apprenticeships have never ceased to exist and It's the true driver behind Germany's incredible performance recently. After 10th grade I left high shool and joined a company ( Siemens ) "full time" as a trainee. This means that 4 days of the week you work and 1 day you go to vocational school whe…

There is the question of the competency of a narrowly-educated public deciding critical matters in a democracy... The American liberal arts education tradition has this focus at its core, and the poster above alludes to it: the purpose of the education was not only to get a job, but rather to make full, well-rounded civic-minded citizens.

On the one hand, the fact that German democracy seems to function so effectively, perhaps challenges this view. On the other hand, perhaps America needs to invest more in the civic area because the challenges that come from our diversity require extra strength in order for that diversity to in net make us stronger.

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#89

Post by lsc » Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 6:24 AM UTC

shadowfiend wrote: post #18

And the pendulum swings back. While there are differences, fundamentally the proposition of mentors, internship-based learning, and living on site is not that different from apprenticeships. There's a wider exposure to ideas, perhaps (because maybe you jump between internships instead of staying with one), but at its most basic level the proposed idea is training people to do jobs instead of trying to expand their th…

>There's a tension right now between the university as a place to expand your mind and learn for the sake of learning and the university as a place where you prepare for a job.

I see this argument come up all the time. "You might be making more money than I am, but I have a degree, and that makes me a classy person."

It goes right along with the theory that college degrees are class markers, made ineffective by the large number of lower-middle class and poor folks mistaking cause for effect and mortgaging themselves in order to go to school.

The hard truth? For most of us, we can't afford to spend four years and a couple hundred grand "learning for the sake of learning." I have to work for a living. Sure, I enjoy reading in the evening, but even now, I couldn't afford to drop that kind of money and take four years off.

If your parents can't afford to just pay for your school? well, you had better learn something that you can use to earn money, 'cause those loans? they don't go away with bankruptcy.

So yeah; You (rather, those that say school should be about learning for the sake of learning, not learning so you can earn more money) need to acknowledge that if school is 'for the sake of learning' then it's irresponsible to ask the lower middle-class and the poor to mortgage themselves to attend. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with having a four-year long summer-camp for rich kids, but if that's what you want, say so.

(yes, I have been told that I have a 'Napoleon complex' about my lack of schooling. Sorry. But I do think what I say is true, even if the tone, perhaps, has more emotion than a reasoned argument ought. Spending the kind of time and money required to get a BA "for the sake of learning" if it doesn't increase your earning power, is something that only the children of the rich (and recipients of full-ride scholarships) can reasonably be expected to do.)

Re: Khan Academy Founder Proposes a New Type of College

#90

Post by _delirium » Sun, Dec 02, 2012, 10:37 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #89

shadowfiend wrote: post #18

And the pendulum swings back. While there are differences, fundamentally the proposition of mentors, internship-based learning, and living on site is not that different from apprenticeships. There's a wider exposure to ideas, perhaps (because maybe you jump between internships instead of staying with one), but at its most basic level the proposed idea is training people to do jobs instead of trying to expand their th…

>There's a tension right now between the university as a place to expand your mind and learn for the sake of learning and the university as a place where you prepare for a job. I see this argument come up all the time. "You might be making more money than I am, but I have a degree, and that makes me a classy person." It goes right along with the theory that college degrees are class markers, made ineffective by the l…

You (rather, those that say school should be about learning for the sake of learning, not learning so you can earn more money) need to acknowledge that if school is 'for the sake of learning' then it's irresponsible to ask the lower middle-class and the poor to mortgage themselves to attend.

I agree with that, but one obvious solution is that it shouldn't require mortgaging yourself to attend. Here in Denmark, universities are tuition-free, and students are actually paid a small stipend to attend, to cover living expenses. The intent is precisely to remove any link to parents' socio-economic status in who is able to afford to attend university.

Even in the U.S. it used to be somewhat closer to that. My dad came from a poor family and attended university without taking out any loans, because at the time ('60s), public universities had very low tuition, and even what low tuition existed could be covered by part-time work on campus (e.g. in the cafeteria or library).