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US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

reuters.com

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Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#201

Post by adamtaylor_13 »

bitmasher9 wrote: post #21
jmyeet wrote: post #12

The US government exists to defend capital interests. It's why we can't buy BYD cars. It's why we can't import any cars unless they're 25 years old. It's why a Tiktok sale was forced. It's why the US is seeking to block states from banning prediction markets. It's why the federal government is seeking to block states from blocking data center projects. As soon as DeepSeek came out I realized what was going on: China…

The reason why some Capital Interests want to blacklist DeepSeek in the US is so that you are forced to buy Claude/GPT/Gemini, which will feed revenue into an industry that requires revenue (or it’s a big problem). The reason why some Capital Interests don’t want to ban DeepSeek is so companies that utilize AI have more options, and running your own DeepSeek cluster acts as an independent cost comparison for enterpri…

> The reason why some Capital Interests want to blacklist DeepSeek in the US is so that you are forced to buy Claude/GPT/Gemini, which will feed revenue into an industry that requires revenue (or it’s a big problem).

It sounds right, but I see zero evidence of this. I think you underestimate how many people in the current administration are True Believers. This does not, to me, seem like anything to do with Big Capital, but rather "America over China".

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#202

Post by Barrin92 »

14u2c wrote: post #180
tranceylc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian, and I also agree. It’s hard to avoid but I try not to use any American service or data storage.

And that's fine of course, but it's worth noting that you're making a decision driven by emotion rather than data.

How so, with the Snowden leaks we learned the extent of American digital espionage in Europe, the US government puts pressure on Europe to prevent taxation or regulation of American business and even European citizens have become the subject of mistreatment in American airports based on their digital profiles. We can enter China visa free.

Given that you're big on data and don't like emotions, what have the Chinese materially done to us Europeans we ought to care about?

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#203

Post by WarmWash »

mft_ wrote: post #194
WarmWash wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

In your take, why are they producing and giving away such good local models? Mindshare? Promotion?

Soft power primarily (see my original comment),and less data for western labs to train on, less money for western labs to have.

The state can use their AI as a tool to bolster their standing, which is working well. Chinese AI labs don't have to worry about making money or affording more compute. The state will (and does) give them whatever they need.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#204

Post by wbl »

hgoel wrote: post #100
wbl wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever see a tiktok about may 35?

Why should that mean that Americans should prefer that TikTok restrict narratives unfavoraroble to American oligarchs?

What do you think the Chinese would use Tiktok for if Taiwan heated up again?

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#205

Post by WarmWash »

Barrin92 wrote: post #202
14u2c wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's fine of course, but it's worth noting that you're making a decision driven by emotion rather than data.

How so, with the Snowden leaks we learned the extent of American digital espionage in Europe, the US government puts pressure on Europe to prevent taxation or regulation of American business and even European citizens have become the subject of mistreatment in American airports based on their digital profiles. We can enter China visa free. Given that you're big on data and don't like emotions, what have the Chinese m…

Selling Russia weapons to help kill Ukrainians, buying Russian oil/gas to help kill Ukrainians.

But free AI models or something, right?

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#206

Post by betaby »

FuckButtons wrote: post #186
WarmWash wrote: post #106

If Chinese LLMs are successfully making people in the west defend China, then I think we have all the evidence we need to explain why they are giving away their models. The next step of course will be to get people using that ungodly cheap AI on Chinese servers. Which will also be defended because "I would never trust an American Lab".

It’s not like this is a new tactic, china has been very successful at wiping out competition by undercutting them using state subsidies in many sectors of the economy.

> wiping out competition by undercutting them using state subsidies

The same tactic is in the USA. Like every new AI datacenter has ~10 tax waiver + explicit subsidies + favorable loans, etc, etc.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#207

Post by kmeisthax »

l5870uoo9y wrote: post #103

Is DeepSeek really behaving different than other Chinese companies? Intellectual theft is ongoing and has been ongoing for decades. Besides security risks and foul play, it is impressive by just how much DeepSeek undercuts OpenAI and Claude. DeepSeek charges $0.87 per million output tokens compared to $50 for Fable and $30 for GPT-5.5.

I don't think we should pay any AI lab for their """work""" until they start paying consenting data subjects for their data. Given this, China comes off less like a thief and more like Robin Hood.

Or, to put it in 2000s terms: Anthropic is the guy selling bootleg CD-Rs of MP3s they downloaded from Grokster[0]. Should we give a shit about their livelihood when people figure out about Gnutella? No. Knowledge is a commons, and Anthropic is one of the biggest threats to the knowledge commons in recent memory.

[0] Not to be confused with the AI lab.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#208

Post by lelanthran »

WarmWash wrote: post #106

If Chinese LLMs are successfully making people in the west defend China, then I think we have all the evidence we need to explain why they are giving away their models. The next step of course will be to get people using that ungodly cheap AI on Chinese servers. Which will also be defended because "I would never trust an American Lab".

> If Chinese LLMs are successfully making people in the west defend China, then I think we have all the evidence we need to explain why they are giving away their models.

Right, and if "The West" wants people to defend them, they better get in on the free action too.

In fact, they have no choice - tokens are soon going to be a commodity, if they aren't already. Most everyone is going to be happy paying 1/20th of the cost for 80% of the value.

Oh, yeah, before I forget, hear the worlds smallest violin, playing for those token suppliers in "The West" whose repeatedly stated goal is to replace human knowledge workers...

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#209

Post by guywithahat »

Vasbarlog wrote: post #177
villish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both China and the US can compel businesses to hand over data. There is no reason to trust any service that doesn't have strong built in privacy.

It’s not China that is threatening to annex Greenland though.

There's nothing wrong with the US buying greenland, which has been done for territories around the world?

The US has a long history of protecting individual freedoms, China does not. There's an irony that you're aware of the misgivings of the US because we have free speech protections. You're probably less aware of the misgivings of the EU because they regularly arrest citizens for speech, and no awareness of the issues with China because they'll just disappear journalists in the night.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#210

Post by cwel »

dryarzeg wrote: post #145
sergiotapia wrote: post #141

These bastards already prevent me from buying a BYD car, and a xiaomi phone, and they are adamant about me not using a chinese AI model. I hope they do not succeed.

Well, I guess you can use a third-party provider, maybe even the US-based one. At least, you can do this at the moment of this writing...

Ok I'll bite: what is the obvious thing I'm supposed to be getting from your ellipses?

are you implying there is a US-based, third-party provider of xiaomi devices, BYD cars?

or are you just referring to hosted providers of those AI models?

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