Live data from Hacker News

Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

discuss.grapheneos.org

201–210 of 497 posts

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#201
post #70

It is amazing how Volkswagen keeps messing up. I am currently in the market for a new car, an EV specifically. Volkswagen brands were at the top of my list for many reasons, among them the excellent driving assist implementation. I got an offer from a dealer three weeks ago and was going to order the car, then the API for the community integration got turned off. I decided to hold back and see what comes from it. Now…

What else was on your list? Haven't looked seriously but WV, kia, Polestar has been on my list.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#202

This is sadly not even the full extent of it. What they did is, they locked their api entirely for anything that is not play protect certified. That means, all the cool stuff that was doable via community-driven projects is now dead in the water. The "app" they provide is 60% advertisement, 30% features, and I unironically preferred using a Home Assistant connection instead of of it for everything. Even for automatio…

I feel like that should be a warranty claim. You sold me one car with a specific set of features and now you've updated it into a different one lacking those features. It's not the same car. You broke it. Fix it or pay me for it's value.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>signed/sealed OS image This way we will just have unremovable age verification, spyware, online accounts to use the os, name another bs from other vendors. What's the point of Linux then? The moment big corps and the state can seal spyware into your computer, they'll happily do it. I'd rather have a separate burn device with whatever os for state services which lives in a faraday cage most of the time and have a pro…

I’m with you in spirit, but the ship is sinking, man. Your arguments were already made in the 90s when the first puff of smoke from all this was on the horizon. Thirty years of chicken little later, I’ve moved past being upset about this and am trying instead to persuade the Linux community to step up before the window of opportunity closes on GP computing altogether. Do something, act , if you want a better future;…

Make the installer KISS. Linux installation still host the realm of complex verbose jargon.

"Starting anaconda", "Enable Kdump", on anything RedHat.

Debian spews an ancient terminal window of options upon options and who knows how to install Arch.

Linux installations has never been click, click go. Installation wizards are still designed for the tech enabled and not the common user.

We have a helicopter on Mars yet they still can't master a installation wizard.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would never ever trust Linux from a vendor. If it's not installed by myself, I refuse to use it. When you accept government gift in approval consider it tapped. At any point they can return to the vendor and go "install this". No? Okay bye to your certification. Call me paranoid.

> I would never ever trust Linux from a vendor. If it's not installed by myself, I refuse to use it. I bet you would, though, if the built OS image were 100% reproducible except for the signature. Once you have a fully reproducible Linux OS build, you can literally copy paste the cryptosig from the vendor and it will work with the image you built yourself from source that you inspected yourself. Then it’s impossible…

> I bet you would, though, if the built OS image were 100% reproducible except for the signature.

CryptoSecure, depends how it's done but again neither can be trusted. Especially when you have no control over the silicon running the OS.

I don't trust Linux now. Microsoft got its mits with WSL. RedHat sold-out to IBM and Debian got in bed with Canonical. Arch & Valve I might trust slightly more. They've got to make money somehow /shrug.

I use FreeBSD and I don't trust that either unless I can do make install world, even then I have my suspicions.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#205
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German companies, especially old school industrial ones like VW, have a very hard time understanding open platforms. The view everything through the lense of liability and compliance first. Their thinking is that if someone runs their app on a custom ROM and uses that to manipulate the app in any way, and that causes some extremely hypothetical damage, that they might be held liable for not having prevented this situ…

Yeah sure, the company behind Dieselgate and single handedly destroyed the diesel market is worried about compliance? Give me a break.

You don't understand, both comes from the same motivation and way of thinking: You see, compliance in Germany is about pretending to be super-compliant and not getting caught. Everyone will do the dance, make all the moves, and if you seem to make all the moves, you are assumed to be compliant. Supervisory authorities will not really check thoroughly except if you are annoying them or making them look bad. Especially if you are partially state-owned like VW.

In Dieselgate VW got caught, made the supervisory authorities and politicians look bad, which is why the authorities also weren't inclined to sweep it under the rug completely. They just shielded VW from the financial consequences in Germany (German VW customers got shafted).

Blocking GrapheneOS is the useless "pretending" part of compliance. They don't really want to do security, because that would cost money, so they pick some actions that seem drastic, harsh and don't cost them anything to implement. Later, when there is a security incident, they will point to their huge heap of pretend compliance, whine a bit about state sponsored actors, high criminal intent and other obvious deflecting bullshit. But they will get away with it, because they did the compliance dance, so they are obviously compliant and did nothing wrong. Nobody in authority will look twice als long as they are neither annoyed or made to look bad.

tl;dr: compliance in Germany is performative

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#206
post #69

Side note. Has anyone else noticed an uptick in GrapheneOS posts lately or am I crazy?

Sort of, there're more posts about graphene in the year 2026 & they get much more attention. Aggregated some data and plotted it with my agent: https://boop.icu/Pr.png

Can you add CopperheadOS data 2014-2018 and AndroidHardening Project from 2018-2019?

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#207
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sure, the company behind Dieselgate and single handedly destroyed the diesel market is worried about compliance? Give me a break.

VW is large enough that different parts of the company can have very different opinions.

I mean, the app services department doesn't exactly have a track record of perfect compliance (privacy) either, so there is that.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#208
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW didn’t seem too concerned with compliance when they were rigging their pollution tests.

That was just engineers engineering their way into creating Electrify America :)

I am pretty sure that was not the engineers, but someone higher up the food chain ordering people to do that. I might be wrong, but maybe I missed the obvious "/s" or "/i" here.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#209
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sure, the company behind Dieselgate and single handedly destroyed the diesel market is worried about compliance? Give me a break.

VW is large enough that different parts of the company can have very different opinions.

That itself though speaks for a broken company culture. If one part of the company is completely disaligned with the values of good engineering, why should anyone still trust the company as a whole? It seems they at the very least severely lack a good vision then, to uphold the company values or what should be the company values.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German companies, especially old school industrial ones like VW, have a very hard time understanding open platforms. The view everything through the lense of liability and compliance first. Their thinking is that if someone runs their app on a custom ROM and uses that to manipulate the app in any way, and that causes some extremely hypothetical damage, that they might be held liable for not having prevented this situ…

If I had to guess it’s liability concerns around the app-based remote unlock and parking + R155 and CRA. A lot of european companies have moved to require attestation in their apps, likely spurred on by the CRA.

But why? I'd understand (though not approve) them tightening down everything about the car firmware to the max. They are responsible for the app, sure (it's a "digital element"), but they aren't responsible for the OS the app runs on. The CRA should not be used as an excuse to enact stupid restrictions.
Post reply on HN