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U.S. science is in chaos

scientificamerican.com

241–250 of 1001 posts

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US situation is mitigated by both Russia and China deciding to make massive, foolish maneuvers at the same time as ours. However neither can match how stupendously we are lighting our future on fire in every possible dimension.

What are the foolish maneuvers that China is making?

Not is but the obvious one was COVID policy during 2020-2022. It triggered the closest thing to a domestic unrest you can get in China after 1989, a large exodus of middle class, and an almost 50% crash in their real estate market. The last one is very deadly and still ongoing because that is how China financed its growth for decades.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#242
post #218
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is facing a multi-generational technical decline never before seen that will do irreparable harm across all fields of research, let alone the human cost especially borne by young scientists who have more to lose, and your grand insightful take is that well, some of it deserved to get cut, when you're not even the one making the decisions of which ones do receive funding.

> America is facing a multi-generational technical decline never before seen that will do irreparable harm across all fields of research This sounds very bad! But since I'm not arguing in favor of technical decline and irreparable harm, it doesn't mean that my argument is wrong. > let alone the human cost especially borne by young scientists who have more to lose, I'm confused: is science funding a welfare state for…

The arrogance and ignorance so voluntarily put up on display is mind numbing.

Not only have I worked as a science funder for the past 15 years as the founder of Experiment.com and with countless partner foundations and grant programs, having personally funded and peer reviewed thousands and thousands of projects, I've also sat as a member of countless NBER meta science panels alongside NIH and NSF directors where everyone's main pressure is earnestly trying to improve the efficiency and returns of science funding. Mainly to combat the false beliefs around science funding that people like you have spread.

The number one universal lesson of funding basic research, going back from Vannevar Bush to Carl Sagan to small risky out-of-bounds research, is that you don't pick and choose where impact comes from. You don't get to try and justify based on your political preference where you think the most progress will come from. That's not any of this works. The funding of a random jellyfish protein that eventually turns into the discovery of GFP only ten years later is not the kind of thing you can try and predict ahead of time or concoct on paper.

If you don't understand how basic research and impact works, then yeah you shouldn't be allowed to have hot takes about the system that millions of scientists rely on. You're dressing up anti-intellectualism behind a sham of commitment towards meritocracy when you won't even support the people who deserve it on merit. Get lost.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#243
post #166
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh scientists are leaving science in droves, certainly. Often becoming sales-people for deep-tech companies, which is rather sad. This is the most recent shock, and probably the biggest one, but academia has been becoming toxically metrics-driven, authoritative and political for a long while, weirdly more than in industry. It has nothing to do with scientists of course, they are the last ones that would want this. It…

True, also very precarious and unstable. It is now common not to get a long-term contract until your 40s. Given the massive pay gap with industry and scarce funding, it's natural lots of innovation has shifted to industrial labs.

In EU there are laws that force universities to give researchers a permanent contract after a couple years. The result? Everyone gets fired every couple of years. In certain fields, this implies changing country every couple of years.

Not that the university is paying much anyway, often the opposite: the researcher gets their own grant and they are forced to pay a cut to the host university, or to their group leader. It can get rather feudal.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#244
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly most universities now have a very strong liberal bias. I think most science departments were left leaning in the 1950s, but it is stronger now. (I think colleges and universities have always been more progressive than the general populous.) The administrations of universities are now very strongly Democrat leaning. I think that Trump just sees a lot of Democrat run institutions and thinks, "Why should the g…

Because until this administration, it has been considered a vital principle of democracy that the elected government supports all the citizens and institutions of the nation, not just the ones that it controls.

But principles don't exist out of nowhere. We had a very partisan country in the past. Consensus was built to get us here, then we just stopped putting in work on building/keeping consensus and resorted to Jon Stewart style calling/making people look like idiots, and expecting past consensus to hold things together in a Jon Stewart style world of mockery of each other. Consensus requires respect each way. One side threw it out the door (knowing or not) with Jon Stewart style ridicule of other but is shocked when that then got responded to X100 with Trump style politics.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#245
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! Not scientifically controversial at all, but politically controversial, unfortunately.

So scientists are getting a reality check. Even scientists have customers, in their case the government. In the private sector a customer can change their mind, even often for a retarded reason, and suddenly decide to stop employing your services. Turns out that happens in government to. We're all employed at the convenience and service of our customers, if they change their mind, ultimately that's their decision tha…

It is often hard to put an economic value on research in general. That makes the whole "labor market" highly different from the rest of the world.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re clearly referring to something specific, what is it?

One example is that whenever patents expire on some refrigerants or related process somehow magically at that same exact moment Dupont or other chemical IP behemoth magically find a new one safe for the ozone, the science magically all aligns at that moment, and congress/EPA finds the time to change the law before one iota of generic industry can squeeze out. I think the generic idea of the science and global warming…

Ozone is an interesting topic. CFCs seem to be very potent climate gases. But I haven't checked any calculations about them, yet. I'd love to see a good analysis of the absorption-spectrum. Adding something new to the atmosphere has a lot of warming potential - but the question always is how fast it reaches a level of saturation. For ozone and CFCs years of media coverage haven't brought any insight. Having 3 different updated versions of Dupont-products in the atmosphere could be good or bad - most likely people haven't bothered to check, yet... But they're all full of furious knowledge. People "know" that banning CFCs "cured" the ozone hole - but they don't ask why it shrunk too early, and why the situation hasn't changed at all for decades now...

I think most likely the banning was good - but the reasons don't really make sense.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#247
post #41
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all should feel sad and angry. That said, this was never about saving money. This is about keeping scientists under tight control by the government, in order to suppress research on climate change and other controversial topics. If the government can cut your grant at any time without notice or appeal you will think twice before publishing results that go against their ideology, or even before publishing a critici…

I just want to vent: climate change is not a controversial topic, it's an inconvenient topic for people making a lot of money.

It's a propaganda talking point. "Controversy" is generally as much a manufactured product as possible, because it assists propaganda goals.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#248
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

dude make an argument or dont, this kind of half assed "I know something but the man won't let me talk about it" is annoying and useless.

He’s probably a bot or paid to post misinformation to muddy the waters. The topic is highly financially charged despite overwhelming evidence on one side.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#249
post #64
post #21

[flagged]

Certainly most universities now have a very strong liberal bias. I think most science departments were left leaning in the 1950s, but it is stronger now. (I think colleges and universities have always been more progressive than the general populous.) The administrations of universities are now very strongly Democrat leaning. I think that Trump just sees a lot of Democrat run institutions and thinks, "Why should the g…

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