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U.S. science is in chaos

scientificamerican.com

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Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#221

Post by rainsford »

mothballed wrote: post #203
pastel8739 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re clearly referring to something specific, what is it?

One example is that whenever patents expire on some refrigerants or related process somehow magically at that same exact moment Dupont or other chemical IP behemoth magically find a new one safe for the ozone, the science magically all aligns at that moment, and congress/EPA finds the time to change the law before one iota of generic industry can squeeze out. I think the generic idea of the science and global warming…

The problem you're describing is non-scientific interests putting their thumb on the scale of scientific questions. The solution to that problem is more science, not more politicized control of science.

Elsewhere in this comment section you're defending politicians as customers of scientists demanding politically convenient science. But that's exactly what produces the non-scientific conclusions you're talking about in this post. What you really should want is for science to be held to a gold standard of fidelity to the facts, and for politicians who push them in other directions should be voted out of office.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#222

Post by HWR_14 »

defrost wrote: post #73
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The controversy is over whether we should learn more about it and take appropriate actions, or ignore it. This fundamental disagreement makes it a controversial topic. Reminds me of the when all the catholic priests were molesting kids and being moved around instead of outed and prosecuted. This was also a controversial topic too for the same reasons. Some people wanted to take action, while other (more powerful) peo…

In the US, sure. In Australia we established a Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, looked at all the schools and institutions regardless of creed (and, it turned out, the Christian Brothers were the clear worst of the worst - although few came away unscathed) and then put a senior Vatican Cardinal on trial. TBH it's been a lot harder to get the worst carbon offenders under close scrut…

Is that better than the US response? By the time the Royal Commission started, the total amount the Catholic Church in the US had paid out was approaching a billion dollars (back when a billion dollars could buy you instagram). Dioceses have continued to pay since then and many had to file for bankruptcy protection in the US.

That seems like a more severe response than a single cardinal getting arrested.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#223

Post by Schlagbohrer »

eitally wrote: post #214
stainablesteel wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

When I was in grad school (2008-2011), of the 60 people in my program only 5 were American. The vast majority were Indian or Chinese (~50). I wouldn't say there was discrimination, though. The matriculation statistics were interest-based, mostly. A lot of the Americans who received their BS went immediately to industry.

During my engineering grad program I was fascinated by the gender disparity among americans (almost no women) versus the nearly equal gender balance among engineering grad students from India, the Middle East (including Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia), and China.

The engineering gender imbalance seems to be almost unique to the USA. Countries with awful records on women's rights sent just as many women to get PhDs as men.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#224

Post by Windchaser »

fn-mote wrote: post #167
inigyou wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently, in the US, money is an infinite resource. One need only look at the world's latest one point five trillionaire. Where is the money coming from to support that valuation? And why is it being spent to maintain that valuation? Part of it is accounting tricks (sell 5% of a company for $20, and you're worth $400 with only $20 changing hands) but there's also genuinely a massive unexplained amount of money in ex…

> Currently, in the US, money is an infinite resource. […] Try harder to engage in dialog. Basic economic theory contradicts your claim. You need a much stronger logical argument to have any credibility.

No, no, they're definitely correct. There's no hard limit on the amount of money created. Excess money creation just results in inflation.

More to the point: Congress is being profligate in other spending, and miserly w.r.t. science, so it does indeed look like the science cuts are not motivated by fiscal responsibility.

Your quip about "basic economic theory" doesn't really address the point they're making.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#225

Post by stainablesteel »

btrettel wrote: post #207
stainablesteel wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

As a US citizen with a PhD, I didn't experience any clear discrimination in favor of foreign students during grad school. I think the main reason so few US citizens get PhDs is because PhD "student" (they're actually workers) positions pay so poorly. Make PhD student positions have non-poverty wages and you'll see a lot more interest from US citizens. On the flip side, I think foreign students experienced a lot of ab…

im referring to the admissions process, and this discrimination has been present for decades

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#226

Post by stainablesteel »

eitally wrote: post #214
stainablesteel wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

When I was in grad school (2008-2011), of the 60 people in my program only 5 were American. The vast majority were Indian or Chinese (~50). I wouldn't say there was discrimination, though. The matriculation statistics were interest-based, mostly. A lot of the Americans who received their BS went immediately to industry.

yeah most people are normal human beings, im saying the discrimination happens in getting admitted into the program

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#227

Post by timr »

Windchaser wrote: post #215
timr wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yours is an "ends justify the means" argument, but are you comfortable with the way these cuts were done? Generally no. But I also think that certain classes of keyword filtering were probably a good idea. Filtering for any grants with "structural determinants of health" and reviewing them intensively with the goal of defunding 99%, for example, is probably a good idea. > Would you approve so robustly of your own r…

> I mean, there's zero chance my research would have fallen afoul of any such terms, but let me put it this way: my field was completely up-ended by DeepMind. They not only won a Nobel for that work in record time, but used an approach so severely out of fashion that it couldn't really get any attention. Someone else mentioned that a project got cut because they used the term "engendered". The keywords search cuts we…

> Someone else mentioned that a project got cut because they used the term "engendered".

Well, assuming that this is not an apocryphal story, and that there's no other relevant missing details (e.g. "research into silly topic X also used the word engendered"), etc., then that's dumb. I'm not going to argue about hearsay.

I will say this: before you believe such claims, you should verify them. They're often misremembered or completely made up. In particular, I'm not sure how anyone would know what keyword search was used to target their grant for review.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#228

Post by defrost »

HWR_14 wrote: post #222
defrost wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, sure. In Australia we established a Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, looked at all the schools and institutions regardless of creed (and, it turned out, the Christian Brothers were the clear worst of the worst - although few came away unscathed) and then put a senior Vatican Cardinal on trial. TBH it's been a lot harder to get the worst carbon offenders under close scrut…

Is that better than the US response? By the time the Royal Commission started, the total amount the Catholic Church in the US had paid out was approaching a billion dollars (back when a billion dollars could buy you instagram). Dioceses have continued to pay since then and many had to file for bankruptcy protection in the US. That seems like a more severe response than a single cardinal getting arrested.

The comment I responded to seemed to imply that the US was hung between two paths and took no action.

I'm pleased to hear a response was made and hope Eddy_Viscosity2 sees your comment.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#229

Post by Windchaser »

godsinhisheaven wrote: post #206
Draiken wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What did they expect would happen? Trump to just continue funding these people that hate him? So you believe it's expected that a president will de-fund everything that supports their opposing party? I'm sure that's a totally great idea that won't cause any issues whatsoever. American politics are so absurd.

Honestly, yes. I would expect that, or at least whichever party controls Congress to defund efforts that would seek to hurt them. The real abberation is that university funding has gone unscathed for so long. It's said too much and honestly I hate it, but consider the hypothetical: what if 80% of professors expounded right wing ideologies for about, 60 years? Would you not expect some kind of backlash?

Eh, I think there's a bit of a logical jump between "professors hate Trump" and "professors are expounding left-wing ideologies".

Yes, most professors are opposed to Trump. But when you're talking to a professor of, say, metallurgy, he's not using his classroom to rant against Trump. He's using his classroom to teach students about metallurgy, which is a pretty dang useful service to a modern industrial economy. Professor's personal political views aren't interfering with the economic and scientific value he's providing to the country.

Which is why the universities and research centers have largely been untouched until now. Until Trump, both sides could recognize that even if there was political disagreement between the professors and the politicians, the professors were still doing important work.

Trump took it personally, and on that personal basis he's now eroding our scientific and technological future. We're eating our seed corn, here.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#230

Post by btrettel »

stainablesteel wrote: post #225
btrettel wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US citizen with a PhD, I didn't experience any clear discrimination in favor of foreign students during grad school. I think the main reason so few US citizens get PhDs is because PhD "student" (they're actually workers) positions pay so poorly. Make PhD student positions have non-poverty wages and you'll see a lot more interest from US citizens. On the flip side, I think foreign students experienced a lot of ab…

im referring to the admissions process, and this discrimination has been present for decades

I don't think I experienced discrimination during admissions either. Off the top of my head, I don't know any US citizens who told me that they wanted to go to grad school but were unable to be admitted to a school.
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