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GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

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Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#261

Post by joe_mamba »

RetroTechie wrote: post #132
throw-the-towel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, being Russian myself, I'm also very disappointed by the state of tech in Europe. But you know what hurts the most? That I know it wasn't always that way . I'm sitting right now in the same country that invented the Minitel, built out the TGV network and the Grands Projets, and don't even get me started about the weird and wonderful machines they've got in that museum in Mulhouse, hell, you could go back in t…

> It was almost physically painful to discover that it seems to be gone now. It's not gone, it just needs to be re-discovered. And the bureaucrats need to flash some € then get out of the way.

>It's not gone, it just needs to be re-discovered.

After how much time of not being discovered does it count of it being gone?

> And the bureaucrats need to flash some € then get out of the way.

And when is the EU gonna do that? When pigs fly?

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#262

Post by themgt »

Certhas wrote: post #221
bradhe wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources. This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man. On the brain drain problem in particular, one way to ensure talent sticks around is to create a good environment for people to do their best work. I…

This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government weaponizing its leading tech firms reach into the EU for nationalistic purposes. The EU was build on the principles of collaboration, to overcome the nationalistic impulses. Free trade and free movement of people, no need for everyone to replicate what everyone else is doing. Preventing individual nation states from favor…

This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government ... The EU was build on the principles of collaboration ... But this only works if it is reciprocal.

This sounds great but doesn't really make any sense. What skeptics are saying is there should be a pan-EU effort to build frontier models, rather than one-off toy models built by each country as a box-ticking exercise.

"We built the EU as a powerful supranational organization, so logically the EU's response to a great power challenge in the realm that may well define the 21st century is gonna be to shatter its efforts into 27 useless pieces, because Trump bad" is just absolutely ridiculous and will not lead to anything good. Be the change you want to see, etc.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#263

Post by joe_mamba »

dmix wrote: post #154
RetroTechie wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was almost physically painful to discover that it seems to be gone now. It's not gone, it just needs to be re-discovered. And the bureaucrats need to flash some € then get out of the way.

The EU chips act was already largely a failure and they threw plenty of money at it. The problem with the Europe is they look to their bureaucrats to stimulate things then expect different results from the last 50 times. Europe needs its own private industry that attracts talent and capital. It doesn’t need another EU press release talking about hopes and dreams

>The EU chips act was already largely a failure and they threw plenty of money at it.

Yep, the proof is in the pudding. They managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory again when US got TSMC to open a fab there.

For example, both German and Austrian semiconductor companies are choosing to expand manufacturing in Malaysia and not domestically.

I don't know what more proof people need that the EU is cooked on manufacturing side.

>The problem with the Europe is they look to their bureaucrats to stimulate things then expect different results from the last 50 times.

The definition of insanity. This is a mentality problem and is deeply ingrained into the EU population. European people are always looking at the state to solve any problems including those of industry and free market, without realizing the state mostly isn't good at those things and they'd actually be better off with less government there. Whenever the state intervenes into the economy it just further supports the massive bloated legacy companies who lobby the politicians never the startup ecosystem. And then people mistake again by voting for more government hoping to fix that which just results in more expensive bloat and more red tape nor a competitive freer market with more capital and innovation.

>Europe needs its own private industry that attracts talent and capital. It doesn’t need another EU press release talking about hopes and dreams

Hey, it worked for the USSR, right? ;)

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#264

Post by joe_mamba »

RetroTechie wrote: post #121
joe_mamba wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't move the goalposts. What computer parts does ASML or NXP make? ASML only makes the lithography machines, 85% of which go outside the EU (let that sink in). And then fabs in Taiwan, Korea or the US use those ASML machines to etch US IP for computer chips. EU doesn't make any computer parts domestically. And NXP mostly makes various microcontrollers and small chips, not high margin IP decenter centric part…

In a recent podcast, it was summarized as: ASM (International) makes machines that add material to a silicon wafer (deposition). ASML makes machines that remove material from said wafers (lithography, etching) (I was a bit surprised that's not combined in 1 machine. But let's move on) Then Besi makes machines to stack / interconnect / package those ICs into a package. I'm assuming pick & place machines are other comp…

>In a recent podcast, it was summarized as: ....

Yes, all true, and all things I didn't disagree with because I wasn't talking about that.

The point I was talking about you only addressed to some extent in a line below that:

>What's missing is the guts to say "hey, let's dump €100B into this & make ourselves some laptop & server CPUs!".

Yeah exactly, the EU doesn't have computer manufacturing capabilities (just like I said 5 layers up) and it never will because it doesn't invest and also doesn't attract investors to invest.

>So as far as EU goes, the capabilities are mostly there. Skilled workforce? Check.

No they're not. We don't have the skilled workers for that. Nobody in EU knows how to design Nvidia and AMD level GPUs and Altera and Xilinx levels of FPGAs that power AI datacenters. Nobody in EU knows how to make competitive 2nm fabs, otherwise EU fabs would have already bought ASML EUV machines and updated their ancient processes to the highly more profitable nodes instead of being stuck making cheap legacy nodes for cars and white goods. Those old nodes are still important to have to an extent, but ask yourself, would you rather sell a die for 10k a pop or sell 1000 dies for 10 cents a pop? Would you rather make more money or less money?

> Money? This is a rich continent.

Money is meaningless if you're not using it right. China is pushing to beat the EU and they have less money than the EU.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#265

Post by enaaem »

saidnooneever wrote: post #258
trhway wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government weaponizing its leading tech firms reach into the EU for nationalistic purposes. And in response NL should weaponize ASML for example. Then both sides would naturally back down. Specialization is the most efficient way of developing tech civilization. Whereis everybody building their own mediocre versions would be repeat…

Of NL weaponizes ASML they will just take their IP and leave NL and then they have nothing. They have already pushed a lot of things out of NL and should invest in leveraging the position without weaponizing it.

If ASML is just IP then everyone would have already copied it. They have an extremely deep and high tech supply chain that is nearly impossible to copy.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#266

Post by mannanj »

Gud wrote: post #239
budsniffer952 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> total shit show Are there people legitimately brain-rotted such that they believe stuff like this? Outside of the constant flow of "hey guys, look at the latest dumb thing Trump did" coming from entertainment outfits posing as news, what are we even talking about? Life goes on as normal for the Americans. You are way too online.

Yes, the current administration has been in power for less than two years so obviously the “day to day life” hasn’t changed much for the average American (except everything has gotten more expensive). The US is no longer looked at as a superpower, it just surrendered to a regional power and will pay $300B USD in tribute. But for Trump and his cronies life certainly has improved. But the damage is done and we are witn…

The us stopped being looked at as a superpower as a brain rotted Alzheimer’s patients president rose to power on the campaign “don’t let Trump win” and then did little productive except stoke wars and pardon his son and his friends from crimes.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#267

Post by aoshifo »

bradhe wrote: post #167
appplication wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree, it’s in the country’s best interest to facilitate internal expertise on the full stack and own their “supply chain” so to speak and fight brain drain. The outcome isn’t just the model, it’s the expertise. Otherwise all their smartest folks will depart for countries where LLM development is strongest.

Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources. This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man. On the brain drain problem in particular, one way to ensure talent sticks around is to create a good environment for people to do their best work. I…

I don't see it as a nationalist world view around tech in Europe. There is certainly a push for "sovereignty", but that mostly means sovereign from the US. But European countries are actively working together on this.

> Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources.

Yeah, why is Anthropic making their own mediocre models, if they could just pool their resources with OpenAI, that makes no sense.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#268

Post by aoshifo »

kortilla wrote: post #214
Gud wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it have to be mediocre? Both Netherlands and Sweden produce highly competent researchers. Per capita on par with any other location on the planet, including California. This will be good for Europe as a whole and also the planet.

Producing local researchers isn’t enough. If you want a competitive model you need to bring the best researchers from all over the world. That means lots of investment that hasn’t been common in Europe.

But it's a start

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#270

Post by bmenrigh »

I think at this point what the Netherlands, and any other country that wants a good model in their language should do, is gather up every piece of text ever written in that language and license it to the big AI labs/companies for training. I'm sure there are vast libraries of books and other text that haven't been digitized and aren't a priority for the big labs.
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