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Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

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Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just one of the options, albeit the most beneficial for gamers. > "open source released with stubs" are also usually games that are decades old and cultural landmarks Not necessarily. Edit: the goalpost is "the games should remain playable after the publisher stop supporting it". It hasn't moved an inch. So I'm not sure what you are talking about...

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> Every single suggestion you are making ignores the associated cost to the developers/publishers of the game

The developer is the one who should think about costs. You shouldn't force it on consumers.

> If you are fine with making game development an even riskier financial endeavour than it already is

Yes, I'm absolutely fine with it. We already have a lot of games to play, and if developers have to be very considerate before making something and the number of released games decreases because of this, so be it.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wrong, the commission did discuss with SKG, but the entire group had their head in the sand when reasonable people asked SKG to respect technical reality and resubmit a better, reality-focused proposal as SKG 2.0. They ban anyone not in their echo chamber.

The technical reality is: - that singel player games don't need a persistent online connection - that it is not that complicated if you develop your game with offline playability in mind from the beginning - multiplayer games can very well have an offline playable LAN mode (Age of Empires 2 is currently sold as "Definitive Edition" which does not work offline in LAN unless you connect to Xbox online services first) T…

> multiplayer games can very well have an offline playable LAN mode

_some_ multiplayer games can, many can't, as they are using a cloud-based multiplayer backend that isn't easily replaceable (see other discussions in this thread). SKG makes no effort to address those differences.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#133

As is stated in the article, but is not clear just from the headline, this was not an unexpected outcome from the initiative. The Commission did not seek discussions with SKG, and spent virtually all of their time with the gaming industry lobby groups. SKG was prepared for this, and their intention has been to join up with the group putting together the new Digital Fairness Act, since the objective there is very simi…

> spent virtually all of their time with the gaming industry lobby groups.

The industry should only be allowed to comment after the laws have been written and fulfill the goals of European citizens.

To ask the fox to guard the hen house is killing democracy.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#134
post #56
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree with the first point; it would have been great showing a list of supporters from the game industry. Not that I am an expert in this matter, though. However: > The EU will view this from the perspective of balancing the rights of its citizen workers/producers (game developers) and its citizen consumers. How could SKG be an attack on gamedevs? What changes in the life of someone in gamedev if the onlin…

If you're actually curious, to gate a taste of the cost of compliance, I recommend taking a look into the different standards for website accessibility, GDPR, etc. On paper it sounds great, who doesn't want a accessible websites or privacy? But in practice it's a total drain of resources, real legal risk even if you genuinely try and be compliant, and often you just pay a lot of $$$ for legal, compliance advisors etc…

> I recommend taking a look into the different standards for website accessibility, GDPR, etc. On paper it sounds great, who doesn't want an accessible websites or privacy? But in practice it's a total drain of resources, real legal risk even if you genuinely try and be compliant, and often you just pay a lot of $$$ for legal, compliance advisors etc. so you could tick off a box and have some sort of insurance in case you're being sued.

This is a really good analogy, except you made one mistake: it’s not difficult at all to design something to be accessible and respectful of privacy as long as you do it from the start. If you try to build something inaccessible and privacy-invading then get caught and have to retrofit accessibility and privacy at the last minute to avoid fines and lawsuits, that’s when it becomes difficult.

And you see this exact mistake crop up in the Stop Killing Games criticism as well. People say that it’s difficult because they are thinking about taking the status quo and retrofitting longevity. For instance, trying to retroactively obtain licenses to distribute components that they didn’t originally have. When in practice, the effect of a law like this is that it would push game developers to make the right choices up front like picking appropriately licensed components, so there’s no barrier to keeping the game alive when the time comes to cease support.

It might also have escaped your attention that the EU was perfectly willing to create accessibility and privacy regulations, so if you are likening Stop Killing Games to these things then it stands to reason that this is not a reason for the EU to avoid Stop Killing Games legislation.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you mean - if the developer stops supporting the game then they might run out of money to make the changes. This can even happen spontaneously in some cases. But I'm still expecting at least some effort in preserving their product, their legacy. Some people might call it naive (and it probably is), but for me personally the baseline is that games should be playable at least in some way. Maybe the experienc…

> they might run out of money to make the changes They may have never made any money to begin with, as they ran out of money during the development phase of the game because they were trying to comply with the regulation, and never got to release the game. Regulation almost always places a higher proportional burden on the smaller players, while larger players can afford it, which is why sensible regulation has carve…

> they ran out of money during the development phase of the game because they were trying to comply with the regulation

I don't believe it. This is not the biggest spending point when making a videogame. If a developer uses this as an excuse, there was probably something else wrong with the development.

> How is that better?

Well, being able to play a game is better than not being able to play the game. I've played multiplayer games with high lag, you can get used to this. Especially if you want to play the game. Also, community can fix some stuff on their own, but only if they have something to work with.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#136
post #23
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not surprising. The movement has been all about gamer vibes and not technical reality from day one. It should have been rejected, and I'm glad it was.

Not sure about the technical reality here - until 2010s, singleplayer games didn't require an Internet connection, and for multiplayer ones you could download a dedicated server application, host it yourself. Only recently it became locked down for the corporate profit; the only party making it hard are the game developers themselves.

Half-Life 2, released back in 2004, required an Internet connection to play. It was a major point of contention, in part due to how unreliable Steam was at the time

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#137

As is stated in the article, but is not clear just from the headline, this was not an unexpected outcome from the initiative. The Commission did not seek discussions with SKG, and spent virtually all of their time with the gaming industry lobby groups. SKG was prepared for this, and their intention has been to join up with the group putting together the new Digital Fairness Act, since the objective there is very simi…

> spent virtually all of their time with the gaming industry lobby groups. The industry should only be allowed to comment after the laws have been written and fulfill the goals of European citizens. To ask the fox to guard the hen house is killing democracy.

This is idiotic. "The industry" are also European citizens.

It's about balancing the interests of people who pay their rent and feed their children by selling games, and the interests of people who merely enjoy games.

Consulting only the group which enjoys games would be absurd to the point of being actively malicious.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#138
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> spent virtually all of their time with the gaming industry lobby groups. The industry should only be allowed to comment after the laws have been written and fulfill the goals of European citizens. To ask the fox to guard the hen house is killing democracy.

This is idiotic . "The industry" are also European citizens. It's about balancing the interests of people who pay their rent and feed their children by selling games, and the interests of people who merely enjoy games. Consulting only the group which enjoys games would be absurd to the point of being actively malicious.

It's a much smaller set of European citizens, and yet they have a much larger access to lawmakers. So no, it's not idiotic.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re calling for legislating software architecture Not really, it will be the consequence of requiring the game to be given to the community after the EOL. > the community are free to reverse engineer the service it relies on While that is true, it is much harder than receiving the code with the most logic intact. We already do reverse engineer the binaries, including the server protocols, so we know how hard it…

> Not really, it will be the consequence of requiring the game to be given to the community after the EOL. "I'm not calling for it, but if it happens to be the only way to achieve what I want then so be it". > While that is true, it is much harder than receiving the code with the most logic intact. We already do reverse engineer the binaries, including the server protocols, so we know how hard it is. And that's why w…

> if it happens to be the only way to achieve what I want

Again, I'm not advocating for some specific architecture. There is more than one way to make a game hostable by players.

> But for many games, the logic _is_ in the remote service calls

Exactly, and this is the issue - you shut down the server and the game becomes bricked.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] running it requires a combination of dynamodb, Kafka, a few microservices on lambda [...] The initiative has no problem with this as far as I know; the backend being an overengineered mess doesn't make it non-compliant with what SKG wants. I've worked on game backends that would've trivially complied with just a basic executable blob + MySQL, and ones that would've required someone to run 10+ services on AWS…

> The initiative has no problem with this as far as I know; the backend being an overengineered mess doesn't make it non-compliant with what SKG wants. SKG wants games to be "playable" and doesn't define what playable is. Is a multiplayer chess game with no AI "playable" if you can boot into the menu? Is TLOU remastered playable if the multiplayer is turned off but the SP is still playable? Is Trackmania playable wit…

> SKG wants games to be "playable" and doesn't define what playable is.

Which is completely fine since they're not a legislative body. Instead of settling on a hard line, they're leaving this part open to be defined in collaboration with lawmakers and the industry. Isn't that exactly what so many detractors are asking for?

Let's be honest, SKG wouldn't have fewer critics if they chose a specific definition of "playable". I'd even argue that the industry would be opposed far more strongly.

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