A Warning for Airbnb Hosts • Hacker News Board

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#141

Post by argumentum » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:23 AM UTC

goodcanadian wrote: post #29

The rules serve a lot of purposes: 1. To protect hotel owners and operators. 2. To protect consumers. They are guaranteed that the hotel has proper insurance, for example. 3. To protect neighbours. You can't open up a hotel in the house next door for much the same reasons that you can't open a pub or an aluminum smelter. 4. And yes, there is some rent seeking behaviour. I'll just mention transient accommodation taxes…

> 1. To protect hotel owners and operators.

Who gives them the right to protection?

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#142

Post by chockablock » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:24 AM UTC

wwkeyboard wrote: post #111

My biggest problem with business models like AirBnB and Uber are that they don't solve the inefficiencies in the existing industry. Instead They transfer the risks inherent in the operations of those industries from businesses who understand, and therefore price according to, those risks, to individuals who don't. When the downsides of those risks happen, as in the case of the OP, the individual, who didn't understan…

> they don't solve the inefficiencies in the existing industry

I disagree. To use some examples given in the original article: how about a guest being able to rent a room in a neighborhood that doesn't have any hotels? Or a host being able to earn money renting out an apartment that would otherwise sit empty?

Which is not to say that your other points about pricing and risk are not valid, of course.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#143

Post by saurik » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:29 AM UTC

nieksand wrote: post #121

wwkeyboard wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just protection from scams. What about the hygiene of the linnens? The fire escapes? Are there sprinklers in these rooms like there are in hotels? Is the room secured from intruders?

So should you be allowed to have any overnight guests in your home? These same arguments apply to family and friends coming for a visit and crashing at your place. Or to a kid's sleep-over for that matter.

(I am not a lawyer, but probably you aren't either, so at least we are on a level playing field ;P.)

> From your mother-in-law to the UPS delivery guy, when someone else sets foot on your property, you could be liable if they’re injured, whether you did anything to cause the injury or not.

http://budgeting.thenest.com/can-sued-somebody-getting-hurt-...

Due to the US notion of "join and several liability", one would imagine in such cases that both the renter and the landlord would be sued by the guest, and in the end it would likely be the landlord (who probably moves larger amounts of money) that would end up paying, requiring them to get it back from the renter.

I imagine this is one of the reasons (in addition to situations involving squatters, etc. <-) why many rental agreements actually have limits on the ability for you to even have guests that stay for more than a few days at a time more often than every few weeks or months.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#144

Post by mamoswined » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:30 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #120

Permit wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You may agree or disagree with the various laws to various degrees, but you must admit that they exist for a reason. By all means discuss reforms that can be made, but please stop with the "these laws are stupid" or "serve no purpose" sort of sentiments. How about this: "These laws do not exist in most places and those places haven't descended into anarchy, nor have they suffered any visible damage because they don'…

This is highly specious reasoning. I would guess the vast majority of American municipalities have far fewer regulations in gun possession that NYC, and despite the number of tragic stories that you hear, virtually all of these municipalities are quite civilized and pleasant. So by your reasoning, the gun laws in NYC aren't needed.

"So by your reasoning, the gun laws in NYC aren't needed."

There are people who say they aren't. The ones in NYC are fairly reasonable though, even if they seem to just mainly cost a lot of money and paperwork for a tiny niche of hobbyists. There are nice shooting ranges in several parts of the city proper though. Unfortunately I moved to Chicago, which has much more crime despite absolutely absurd gun laws.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#145

Post by warfangle » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:31 AM UTC

maratd wrote: post #136

anigbrowl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adam Smith is useful here. All regulation is created on behalf of business interests and is justified through the public interest. That is not what Adam Smith says. His argument that regulations proposed by men of business should be closely scrutinized, since those proposals are almost always meant to further the interests of the business owners rather than the public. He does not assume the same of regulation in gen…

> His argument that regulations proposed by men of business should be closely scrutinized All regulations are proposed by men of business. > Note from the article that it's perfectly OK to let your spare room If you read the article, which mostly speaks about NYC, you'd know that's not OK. You're not permitted to lease any property for less than 30 days.

> All regulations are proposed by men of business.

Was Ralpha Nader in any way connected to seatbelt companies when he proposed seatbelt and safety laws for automobiles?

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#146

Post by mamoswined » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:31 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #140

I have zero sympathy at all for renters facing eviction for housing Airbnb tenants. Those renters aren't being bitten by outdated regulations. They signed a contract that spelled out their obligations to the owner of the building, and the boilerplate version of that contract says that you can't add tenants (or replace your own obligation as a tenant during the term of the lease) without the owner's express approval.…

I'm really curious if there is a difference legally between giving the entire apartment to a guest for a week and letting the guest sleep in a spare bedroom.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#147

Post by tptacek » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:33 AM UTC

mamoswined wrote: post #146

tptacek wrote: post #140

I have zero sympathy at all for renters facing eviction for housing Airbnb tenants. Those renters aren't being bitten by outdated regulations. They signed a contract that spelled out their obligations to the owner of the building, and the boilerplate version of that contract says that you can't add tenants (or replace your own obligation as a tenant during the term of the lease) without the owner's express approval.…

I'm really curious if there is a difference legally between giving the entire apartment to a guest for a week and letting the guest sleep in a spare bedroom.

If you read carefully, a lot of leases have specific clauses about guests too.

There are limits in different jurisdictions about how enforceable some of these clauses are. But subletting contracts tend to hold up.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#148

Post by mamoswined » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:37 AM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #28

tjic wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lodging laws aren't there just to protect hotels. They exist to protect consumers Asserted without evidence.

Show me how commercial fire codes / building codes protect hotels but not consumers. (Edited from "instead of" to "but not", since the original assertion was that they only help hotel owners.)

Apartment buildings also have to adhere to fire codes and building codes too. If they are safe for residents, why wouldn't they be safe for guests?

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#149

Post by weisser » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:44 AM UTC

A family member owns a condo that I considered suggesting they put on Airbnb. Then I thought about how other condo owners currently have a conniption fit when they think people (guests) are getting access to the building that shouldn't. I cannot imagine the amount of hell that would be unleashed if they saw so many random people coming and going. Even if there was nothing in the bylaws I could see them causing my relatives massive headache.

Conversely, the entranceway door to a condo is a security feature that all owners have a shared responsibility for. If I was one of the other owners (or even a renter) how would I feel about another person renting their condo out on a nightly basis to anyone willing to pay for it? I'm pretty torn on the issue.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#150

Post by otterley » Sat, Dec 01, 2012, 2:50 AM UTC

I am an attorney, but this is not legal advice.

The reason Airbnb isn't providing (and are unlikely to provide) legal warnings to its prospective hosts is that instead of being on the hook for one potential legal violation (N.Y. MDW. Law section 304(1)(a)), they'd be on the hook for two.

Advising hosts to obey the local laws in its jurisdiction is pretty harmless. Advising hosts what the law is, on the other hand, could be construed as the unauthorized practice of law, and could get Airbnb into even more hot water. See, e.g., N.Y. Judiciary Law section 495.