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Even more batteries included with Emacs

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Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#41

Post by imglorp »

arikrahman wrote: post #17
QwenGlazer9000 wrote: post #7

All the other comments in this thread talk about emacs instability when that hasn't been the case for me. I'm on doom emacs, update once in a while, and everything mostly just works other than some color scheme weirdness I had to fix. I used to be on neovim, and that ecosystem compared to emacs feels like this image: https://i.imgflip.com/2pg2s7.jpg Some of it is the maintainer shielding us from the breaking changes,…

I find that Emacs is actually the first mover on prime technologies. Just look at gptel and org-mode. Nothing else really even comes close. The reason some odd names exist like yank and kill or kill chain is because Emacs was the first and didn't have anything else to use as reference.

That's right teco/emacs pre-dates xerox gypsy, which coined cut/copy/paste.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#42

Post by zelphirkalt »

rjzzleep wrote: post #20
royal__ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more what's wrong with the Neovim ecosystem? I just switched from Doom Emacs to Neovim and my impression of Neovim has been much better. (I get that Emacs has a much more powerful backbone, I just realized that I didn't really need that power; I just want a good text editor)

LSPs keep getting reimplemented, package managers keep getting reimplemented. It's a bit like the react version of text editors. I used it more than I use emacs, but I agree with the assessment of doom emacs vs neovim.

To be fair, there are also tons of ways to manage packages in Emacs.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#43

Post by zelphirkalt »

kensai wrote: post #16
weinzierl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the output of mathematicians and their biggest discoveries it suggests that it is similarly limited for mental tasks.

Probably this category of mental tasks. For politicians it's the other way around. Prolly you need to have some 'elder statesman' skills as well as wisdom to achieve greatness. Deng Xiaoping ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping ) started changing China at the venerable age of 70+ moving forward until his death almost two decades later. Do not underestimate wisdom as a cognitive skill, even if in today's worl…

To bring up politicians, in a discussion about mental peak performances ... yeah, no, it's funny.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#44

Post by zelphirkalt »

buzzwords wrote: post #4

I saw orgmode once and I really loved it. Used Doomed and spacemacs. But dear Lord, does everything break on updates and need fixing. I had to give up as I just don't think it's feasible for me to fix my emacs when I want to get some work done.

I tried Doom or Spacemacs for a while, not sure which one right now. The one that does evil-mode by default. After it crashed a few times inexplicably, I gave up on them and returned to my heavily configured vanilla Emacs, which never crashes. Not sure how the other Emacsen managed to break things and maybe those failures are long fixed by now, but it was quite unfortunate. I imagine other people experiencing such a thing thinking Emacs is unstable.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#45

Post by noufalibrahim »

michaelanckaert wrote: post #38
noelwelsh wrote: post #31

The biggest problem Emacs has will not be solved by blog posts like this. For most people the editor is a means to an end. They are invested in their end goal, not in hunting down blog posts telling them how to make better use of their tools. If Emacs wants wider adoption is needs a better out-of-the-box experience, which is something that distros like Doom Emacs and Spacemacs offer. That's the only way to make a den…

I understand your point of view, but as far as the Emacs community is concerned there is no problem. Emacs is not an editor. Emacs is not an IDE. Emacs is a platform to develop your own tooling. Text is the main interface Emacs offers. I don't speak for the Emacs community, there isn't even such a thing except maybe semi related groups that share viewpoints, usage and interests. But on the whole, I don't think the "E…

I generally agree. I look at Emacs like a lisp interpreter with text editing primitives on which someone has built a decent editor.

There was a "community" about a decade or two ago. On Freenode IRC, there were regulars who hung around in #emacs and it was quite nice. There were no corporate sponsors or random startups trying to hire from there so it was genuinely just a bunch of people who enjoyed using Emacs and were chatting about it. It's a part of the reason I got really hooked into it. I still use Org heavily for meeting minutes etc.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#46

Post by zelphirkalt »

binary132 wrote: post #6
buzzwords wrote: post #4

I saw orgmode once and I really loved it. Used Doomed and spacemacs. But dear Lord, does everything break on updates and need fixing. I had to give up as I just don't think it's feasible for me to fix my emacs when I want to get some work done.

I’ve come to believe that this is less an emacs problem and more an “emacs plugins that try to do way too much stuff / take too much control” problem. I’m on vanilla emacs (I don’t even use use-package) and my config never breaks any more, even when upgrading major emacs versions. I think it’s about doing things in harmony with the emacs way instead of trying to take over the UI/UX. Emacs Live was always broken when…

use-package is now in standard Emacs, so I would count that towards the Emacs way.

But I agree that it is very stable and for me also doesn't break, even though I use use-package a lot and install many key packages. Maybe it is important to note, that I don't need everything there is out there and that I remove not well working packages quickly after trying them. From time to time I also look at my init file and get rid of no longer used stuff.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#47

Post by zelphirkalt »

gnulinux wrote: post #5

My 2 cents (I hope I don't offend anyone, and of course Emacs community is amazing). I've been using Emacs full-time since ~2010 but I must admit it's been more like part-time along with VSCode since ~2024. > This is largely a discoverability problem In my experience it's not a discoverability problem at all . Not even a little bit. My problem with emacs batteries has always been stability between different combinati…

Question: Why VSCode spyware? Why not at least VSCodium? Or is this just a case like people saying Chrome, when they have Chromium or Ungoogled-Chromium?

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#48

Post by zelphirkalt »

gnulinux wrote: post #5

My 2 cents (I hope I don't offend anyone, and of course Emacs community is amazing). I've been using Emacs full-time since ~2010 but I must admit it's been more like part-time along with VSCode since ~2024. > This is largely a discoverability problem In my experience it's not a discoverability problem at all . Not even a little bit. My problem with emacs batteries has always been stability between different combinati…

My guess is, that writing Emacs packages requires a lot of discipline, to only use the minimal surface one needs from Emacs. And that is, because of the huge amount of mutable global state in Emacs. An actual design flaw, that is sometimes super useful, but at other times super annoying.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#49

Post by quertyrecord74 »

QwenGlazer9000 wrote: post #7

All the other comments in this thread talk about emacs instability when that hasn't been the case for me. I'm on doom emacs, update once in a while, and everything mostly just works other than some color scheme weirdness I had to fix. I used to be on neovim, and that ecosystem compared to emacs feels like this image: https://i.imgflip.com/2pg2s7.jpg Some of it is the maintainer shielding us from the breaking changes,…

Use borg package. You'll get rock solid emacs. Worth the effort.

Re: Even more batteries included with Emacs

#50

Post by sph »

royal__ wrote: post #19
QwenGlazer9000 wrote: post #7

All the other comments in this thread talk about emacs instability when that hasn't been the case for me. I'm on doom emacs, update once in a while, and everything mostly just works other than some color scheme weirdness I had to fix. I used to be on neovim, and that ecosystem compared to emacs feels like this image: https://i.imgflip.com/2pg2s7.jpg Some of it is the maintainer shielding us from the breaking changes,…

Can you explain more what's wrong with the Neovim ecosystem? I just switched from Doom Emacs to Neovim and my impression of Neovim has been much better. (I get that Emacs has a much more powerful backbone, I just realized that I didn't really need that power; I just want a good text editor)

Neovim suffers from the Javascript kids mode of development. Constant change, constant churn, the mirage of stability always behind the corner, you always require third-party packages for functionality that should be core, completely erasing the Lindy effect of vim proper.

It’s a bit sad Neovim has stolen the thunder from the original work of Moolenaar & co. My guess is that neovim will splinter itself down the line further again once lua stops being attractive, while vim & Emacs will keep chugging along for another half century.

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