Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

iza.ac

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 102 posts

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#81

Post by rsynnott »

bobthepanda wrote: post #6

I think what is so interesting is also, if you peel back the curtain, most recipes have standardized at a fairly recent point in their national mythos, depending on how long that is. Recipes are a snapshot of economic and technological advances of the time, and whole classes of recipe are not available until certain technological watersheds, like * precise temperature controls for ovens and stoves in the early 20th c…

The reference carbonara, for instance, appears to have existed in ~its current form for _under a century_.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#82

Post by queenkjuul »

wcfrobert wrote: post #37

I think this is what makes Asian food more exciting and innovative. No whiff of elitism. No status-signaling or having to appeal to the taste of King Louis the 14th. Just cook stuff and make it taste good for as many people as possible; let the market decide what's good and let cuisines intermingle and evolve organically. Striving for authenticity is essentially a pause button. While we should absolutely preserve cul…

Al Pastor is such a crowning achievement of human cultural intermingling, it makes me sad we don't have more Lebanese+Mexican crossovers. S tier combo.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#83

Post by rsynnott »

wcfrobert wrote: post #37

I think this is what makes Asian food more exciting and innovative. No whiff of elitism. No status-signaling or having to appeal to the taste of King Louis the 14th. Just cook stuff and make it taste good for as many people as possible; let the market decide what's good and let cuisines intermingle and evolve organically. Striving for authenticity is essentially a pause button. While we should absolutely preserve cul…

> No status-signaling or having to appeal to the taste of King Louis the 14th

I think you'd have trouble selling people on what Louis XIV ate today. Pretty sure that was still the period that sugar with meat was considered the height of sophistication. Really, pretty much none of this stuff is very old.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#84

Post by epolanski »

fluoridation wrote: post #12
epolanski wrote: post #3

While it's true that you won't find published Carbonara recipes pre dating 1952, the Lazio region has had for centuries pasta dishes based on the same ingredients. And they are thoroughly documented. Both gricia and amatriciana, too other famous pasta dishes from the same region use the same cheese (pecorino) and guanciale. In fact carbonara is nothing more than a gricia with egg yolks. It just makes no sense to have…

The point of a word is to convey meaning with a short string of sounds. The meaning of a word referring to a dish would normally describe the taste of the dish and what it's made of in general terms, because as you've pointed out, recipes are subject to individual variation. To say that a restaurant should not serve a dish called "carbonara" made with French cheese to me sounds similar to saying that an Italian carpe…

[dead]

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#85

Post by grebc »

supertroop wrote: post #11

Food authenticity should only mean DOP or geographic identity (GI) regulation. Everything else is gatekeeping and power struggle. Im glad this discussion comes up every year with a hard hitting blogger recycling the same points for clicks because at least it makes a new batch of people think about it and the second order implications about identity in general.

That the EU runs a racket? Correct. It does remind me of that.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#86

Post by grebc »

goosejuice wrote: post #70
SugarReflex wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just asking - in your mind what is the difference between a chicken burger and a chicken sandwich? We Aussies argue with yanks that a burger is made by the bun and a sandwich is made by the two slices of bread.

Well you Aussies also put hot dogs and sprinkles on white bread. So is fairy bread a sandwich and (American) hot dogs a burger and a sausage sizzle a sandwich?

Sausage on bread is what it’s called, we’d never call that a hotdog.

And fairy bread is just fairy bread, you’re not putting two slices together.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#87

Post by epolanski »

asveikau wrote: post #49
epolanski wrote: post #3

While it's true that you won't find published Carbonara recipes pre dating 1952, the Lazio region has had for centuries pasta dishes based on the same ingredients. And they are thoroughly documented. Both gricia and amatriciana, too other famous pasta dishes from the same region use the same cheese (pecorino) and guanciale. In fact carbonara is nothing more than a gricia with egg yolks. It just makes no sense to have…

Ironically Italians criticize Americans for non-authentic "Alfredo sauce" but that has its origins in Rome in roughly the same early 20th century time period.

Do they? I don't think anybody cares about fettuccine Alfredo in Italy, it's not something you will find on restaurant menus or that people cook at home.

In 40 years I've never had it, and I'm a Rome citizen.

I'm quite confident most Italians don't even know what's in the recipe besides maybe hearing there's butter.

I did try a month ago to go to the original Alfredo restaurant near via del corso, but the queue and prices (28€ for the pasta alone is crazy) made me go to the restaurant literally on the other side of the street. It was quite clearly a tourist trap.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#88

Post by epolanski »

cwnyth wrote: post #18
fluoridation wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of a word is to convey meaning with a short string of sounds. The meaning of a word referring to a dish would normally describe the taste of the dish and what it's made of in general terms, because as you've pointed out, recipes are subject to individual variation. To say that a restaurant should not serve a dish called "carbonara" made with French cheese to me sounds similar to saying that an Italian carpe…

Great analogy. Why is it only food that gets this treatment? Are Italian clothes only made from Italian fabrics, grown from Italian plants? Is every part of an Italian car sourced and made completely within Italy? But people have an irrational desire treat food as some sacred, immutable artifact.

[dead]

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#89

Post by CephalopodMD »

Carbonara was invented at least 3 decades after the American hamburger. When your cuisine is no more traditional or ancient than a burger, you should probably rethink your snobbery.

Granted, when I (out of pure curiosity) ordered and bit into a rubbery charred puck of a hamburger at a restaurant in Rome, I felt similarly violated. The "American sauce" it was served with provided a good laugh. But I shudder to imagine that this is what the Italians think we eat like. Perhaps their indignation is similar.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#90

Post by goosejuice »

grebc wrote: post #86
goosejuice wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you Aussies also put hot dogs and sprinkles on white bread. So is fairy bread a sandwich and (American) hot dogs a burger and a sausage sizzle a sandwich?

Sausage on bread is what it’s called, we’d never call that a hotdog. And fairy bread is just fairy bread, you’re not putting two slices together.

I think that makes sense. I suspect you probably wouldn't call a bacon butty/bap/roll a burger either. Same for pani ca meusa, torta, and cemita.

Basically the Aussies picked up burger as from American influence, changed the meaning, then decided that the yanks defined it wrong. Meanwhile all the other bun based sandwiches get to keep the meaning. That said... the international chains haven't helped the matter.

Post reply on HN