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Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

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Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#91
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I actually have sympathy for people on both sides of the struggle, I also find it hard to answer "yes" to both questions, mostly because of how muddied the definitions of everything are. It's obvious to me, that both the Israeli government and Hamas are both committing serious warcrimes, and that there no good actors here, here are some questions I don't have an answer to. For example, is Palestine its own coun…

The definitions aren't muddled. Apartheid [1] and genocide [2] are both defined by the UN. Apartheid in particular is also objectively true. Do Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jewish Israelis? No, objectively [3][4]. As for Palestine being its own country, it clearly isn't. Palestinians live on land claimed by Israel and recognized by pretty much every country in the world. But what if it was? Then Israel is il…

While I appreciate your candor, words matter. I wouldn't call Israel an apartheid state if, in fact, it was two different countries warring to the death over not enough land. I think that situation is closer to reality, with the "victorious" side refusing to completely destroy the loser and the loser refusing to surrender to the "victor".

That situation has changed for the worse in recent years, and the world should step in, if it can. How the world should step in is not obvious - especially if the thorny history of the region is considered.

Finally, on the "current vs future 'genocides'" - dismissing Israel's legitimate security concerns would be as wrong as dismissing Israel's obvious warcrimes, in my opinion. I can't, in good conscience, advocate for action that would replace one genocide with another and it's important to me to consider my actions and words in that light. You may think differently, but maybe you value human life and morality differently than I do.

It's obvious you've made up your mind, but I don't think you've convinced anyone who hasn't already made up their mind, nor have you addressed, what I believe, are very valid questions about the conflict.

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#92
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this seemingly forever argument, it seems there is some nuance in that Palestine is not Hamas and vice versa. One of the perspectives as I understand it is that Hamas is actually a threat to the existence of Palestine; the militaristic behaviour undermines Palestinian efforts at independence (and this is an avenue for exploitation by those who don't want to see an independent Palestine). It is a similar situation…

No, it's actually really simple. You start with these two questions: 1. Is Israel an apartheid state? 2. Is Israel committing a genocide? At this point (IMHO) you need to do some serious mental gymnastics not to answer "yes" to both questions. As soon as you do, it gets real simple. The existence of Hamas doesn't justify either of these things. The people who bring this up are engaging in respectability politics or e…

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Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#93
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's actually really simple. You start with these two questions: 1. Is Israel an apartheid state? 2. Is Israel committing a genocide? At this point (IMHO) you need to do some serious mental gymnastics not to answer "yes" to both questions. As soon as you do, it gets real simple. The existence of Hamas doesn't justify either of these things. The people who bring this up are engaging in respectability politics or e…

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Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#94
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would heavily prefer for one of the sides in this conflict to be much better funded and armed than the other. Most Americans would prefer that we fund neither. And this isn’t 2012, majority of Americans today do not see Israeli’s, who steal, spy on and try to get Americans killed through wars they start as the “good guys”.

> Most Americans would prefer that we fund neither. I'd say, based on the latest election result, this isn't true. Trump was basically like: I'm gonna fuck up Palestine. They'd better watch it. He was always clear about this. And then he won every single swing state and even won popular vote. Not that I agree with Trump. I merely state what I've observed.

> I'd say, based on the latest election result, this isn't true.

The Israeli-Palestine conflict is far from the #1 priority of things US voters consider when voting in presidential elections.

Also, winning by one of the narrowest margins in US election history, and with less than 50% of the popular vote is hardly a decisive mandate to give Israel a blank check. [1]

[1]https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/22/us/politics/trump-electio...

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#95

Seems this has more to do with Palestine and Google's involvement with Israel to provide cloud computing.

In this seemingly forever argument, it seems there is some nuance in that Palestine is not Hamas and vice versa. One of the perspectives as I understand it is that Hamas is actually a threat to the existence of Palestine; the militaristic behaviour undermines Palestinian efforts at independence (and this is an avenue for exploitation by those who don't want to see an independent Palestine). It is a similar situation…

I mostly agree, except for the blatant calls for genocide from the Israeli side, and the blatant calls for genocide from the Palestinian side. I honestly don't know who to support - neither side wants to live with the other, and it seems, eventually, one of those sides will get their wish. To the detriment of us all.

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#96
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's actually really simple. You start with these two questions: 1. Is Israel an apartheid state? 2. Is Israel committing a genocide? At this point (IMHO) you need to do some serious mental gymnastics not to answer "yes" to both questions. As soon as you do, it gets real simple. The existence of Hamas doesn't justify either of these things. The people who bring this up are engaging in respectability politics or e…

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Can you stop spreading atrocity propaganda?

The rape hoax has been debunked several times. Meantime, there is a lot of video evidence of Israelis raping Palestinians.

https://zeisquirrel.substack.com/p/rape-hoax-redux-debunking...

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#97
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you mean there is “no excuse for what Israel is doing” and “Hamas kidnapping and murdering Israelis” was just a distraction? This is why we should just move on to EVs and stop getting involved at all in the Middle East. I see no morally right way of engaging with either side. Both positions seem to end in “let one side genocide the other side.”

That’s not an excuse. Kidnapping is a police problem. Not a genocide problem.

See, it’s statements like this that make me want to run away like heck from this.

Netanyahu is a hack, a war monger, all sorts of bad, but Palestinians continued support for Hamas and seeing large scale cross border kidnapping/murder as a “police issue”, it’s hard for me to feel sympathy.

So I bought an EV and that’s the end of it.

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#98
post #68

Everyone loves the "free Palestine" slogan, but I've never actually seen the people who call it offer a concrete realistic solution that could achieve that - is it a two state solution? Is it a one state solution that will burst into a civil war? What's the plan? What does it actually look like? I still think a two state solution is the only realistic plan.

Free Palestine simply means a sovereign Palestinian state separate from Israel, which Israel has rejected many times over the years, most recently in the Knesset vote in February and July 2024, opposing the establishment of a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. Any time there was outside attempts to recognize Palestine as a state (e.g. through UN efforts) Israel responded with building more settlements in the…

I've come around on the idea of a Palestinian state.

Once they have a state, the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank will finally have defined borders and a single sovereign. And history shows they can be relied upon to launch another genocidal war on Israel more or less immediately.

Then it will be a war between two nation-states, not a nation-state vs. an unaccountable terrorist organization that pretends to be a proper state when convenient.

The Israel vs. Palestine conflict will then fall neatly into the framework of Westphalian nation-states and when Israel proceeds to utterly defeat Palestine, demands their unconditional surrender, kills all who resist, annexes their territory, and forcibly re-educates any who remain (post-WWII style), it will all be 100% kosher according to customary international law.

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#99

Regardless of the details of this speech, I believe Sundar Pichai is uncommonly out of touch with reality and with the nation of the United States of America, even among tech CEOs. He should step down.

He ruined Google, started by shattering the culture into a million pieces. He has negative charisma and no imagination. He was best as a mid level manager.

Re: Stanford grads walk out on Google CEO Sundar Pichai speech

#100

Everyone loves the "free Palestine" slogan, but I've never actually seen the people who call it offer a concrete realistic solution that could achieve that - is it a two state solution? Is it a one state solution that will burst into a civil war? What's the plan? What does it actually look like? I still think a two state solution is the only realistic plan.

Maybe the shouts are less about "hey I have a concrete solution for a complex hundred year old ethnical problem" and more about "hey an authoritarian state shouldn't be allowed genocide of 100k civilians, or at least my state should not support them with weapons". Protests are about immediate action, solutions happen over long time, if ever.
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