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What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

iza.ac

31–40 of 102 posts

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#31

The older I get, the more I view identity as a sort of trap door. There's no there there that can stand up to sustained scrutiny. Everything has a history, everything is made of something other than what it is. In the context of food, I laugh at notions of authenticity and tradition - unless the time scale is over 1000 years there's not much interesting to talk about.

There’s a lot to be said for shared culture and customs. I am a second-generation American, and I love the familiarity and uniqueness of my family. I think people get really wrapped up in this idea of food as a proxy for culture, which makes sense, because food is really important! But shared culture really shows its value in the hard parts of life: for example when someone dies, there is a shared script, a defined way of making space for grief, a shared way of remembering the dead, etc.

Anyway, obviously cultural identity isn’t inherent: you know what you grew up with. And it can easily turn toxic when we move from appreciating our own culture to putting down others’. But my life would be a lot poorer without it.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#32

The older I get, the more I view identity as a sort of trap door. There's no there there that can stand up to sustained scrutiny. Everything has a history, everything is made of something other than what it is. In the context of food, I laugh at notions of authenticity and tradition - unless the time scale is over 1000 years there's not much interesting to talk about.

I think identity and authenticity are separable and distinct. I agree there is nothing to identity. But there is something to authenticity. Food, art, etc., are intentional creations and there is value in getting an authentic experience that’s the product of application and refinement of a particular set of principles. That doesn’t mean that other things can’t be delicious, of course. But experiencing something “the way it’s supposed to be” has a non-zero value.

Attaching that to your identity is bullshit, though. Neapolitan pizza makers might have some set of principles and practices and you might have an authentic neapolitan pizza that reflects those principles. But that doesn’t give Italians in Naples any authority to gatekeep pizza or even neapolitan-style pizza.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#33

I think what is so interesting is also, if you peel back the curtain, most recipes have standardized at a fairly recent point in their national mythos, depending on how long that is. Recipes are a snapshot of economic and technological advances of the time, and whole classes of recipe are not available until certain technological watersheds, like * precise temperature controls for ovens and stoves in the early 20th c…

Also, motorized blades and grinders were revolutionary for the categories of recipes they unlocked

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#34

I think what is so interesting is also, if you peel back the curtain, most recipes have standardized at a fairly recent point in their national mythos, depending on how long that is. Recipes are a snapshot of economic and technological advances of the time, and whole classes of recipe are not available until certain technological watersheds, like * precise temperature controls for ovens and stoves in the early 20th c…

Pad Thai was an invention to unite the country and forge an identity in the face of Chinese influence. After WWII it was popularized because it was cheap and thus able to feed a post war population.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#35
Well to start chicken and rice are the name of ingredients. Carbonara is a unique name given to a particular set of ingredients and a method of preparation.

I suspect if people just said pasta with pork egg and cheese no one is going to make a big deal out of authenticity.

In other words, this is about words more than anything. They do matter, in the sense that most people would be upset to order a pizza and get a sandwich or order a sandwich and get a taco.

You don't need to leave italian (American) food to see the same phenomenon the author describes. Pizza is also endlessly re-interpreted and adapted. There's value in protecting and exploring. So while I share some of the author's opinions, I think the whole locking recipes into imaginary vaults thing is a bit overblown.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#36
For me it's mostly about knowing what you're getting when craving the flavour of a particular dish. Carbonara is perhaps an example of a recipe that's turned too rigid, but I've also ordered it and been served diced boiled ham in bechamel - an affront to anyone with their sights set on pan-fried pork and a rich, fatty mouthfeel.

Everyone has their own personal limit and variations are allowed within certain unwritten boundaries. Swedish meatballs, for example, can be varied in many ways - but if you put garlic in them, I think you should call them something else.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#37
I think this is what makes Asian food more exciting and innovative. No whiff of elitism. No status-signaling or having to appeal to the taste of King Louis the 14th. Just cook stuff and make it taste good for as many people as possible; let the market decide what's good and let cuisines intermingle and evolve organically.

Striving for authenticity is essentially a pause button. While we should absolutely preserve culturally important recipes[1], we also need to move forward and invent the stuff that people in 2080 will call 'authentic.'

Bring on the durian pizza, the strawberry Mapo tofu, and the Kraft singles in Korean army stews. Food is meant to be enjoyed. Don't gatekeep and keep the performative taste-signaling to wine and coffee please.

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[1] As a side note, a lot of culturally important recipes are actually imports. Tomatoes weren't even available in Italy until the 1600s, Neither did Ireland have potatoes until they were brought over from the New World. Most contemporary Chinese dishes were created in the last century; fish and chip was brought over to the UK by Jewish immigrants; the famous red peppers of Sichuan didn't make its way to China until like the 1600s; Japanese tempura was brought over by Portuguese Catholic missionaries; banh mi has its origin in Vietnam during French colonial rule; national dish of UK is chicken tikka masala; al pastor tacos was brought over by Lebanese immigrants; pad thai was literally invented by the government of Thailand to foster Thai identify. List goes on.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think there’s another component to this that most food sucked. your daily food was probably bad because it had few seasonings. it was likely starch (rice/bread), and stew. you don’t need a recipe for soup, it’s boil water and throw in whatever vegetables you have on hand. maybe meat if you had it

Recipes go back millennia, and seasonings were also common, but varied by region. It’s easy to grow your own herbs a, or even forage for some things. I don’t think it’s true that most food sucked at any point, except for people in exceptional circumstances.

Recipes were the province of the wealthy. The average person would have had a very repetitive, bland, and potentially malnourishing diet. They might have had some herbs or even foraged like you say, that still is very bland and boring compared to what we’re used to.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#39
Part of this is definitely cultural and class snobbery. Europeans are seen as being high class. So if you put cream in your Alfredo you are seen as being as ignorant and not knowing any better. Yet any sort of fusion with cultural foods that are viewed as lower class only serves to “elevate” the dishes.

Re: What even is food authenticity? Why we guard carbonara, and flatten chicken rice

#40
post #23

I cannot wait for a cultural shift away from respecting "authenticity" and "tradition" in food. It's fine to remember and recognize how things were often done. But the ridiculousness of saying New York style pizza is not pizza or that you have to make things the "right way" needs to go.

Pizza is one of those things that is multi-polar, with different canons. New York pizza is not Neapolitan pizza for sure. Neither of those are the al taglio from Rome, i.e. even in the original country there's regionalism.
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