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Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

bramcohen.com

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Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#71

Post by whstl »

SwellJoe wrote: post #61
whstl wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly that. I can give an example. After watching Legal Eagle, I asked a legal-ish questions about the Bricks and Minifigs case. Claude was outdated about the case and gave me some outdated info, so I tried to update it with the info I just saw online. I updated by telling it I saw something in a LegalEagle video. It proceeded to tell me the video doesn't exist and I was hallucinating it, in a quite combative manne…

You're misunderstanding what these models do. It is a limitation of LLMs. They don't have memory, they do not learn, they cannot learn. The sooner you let go of your desire to have them learn or remember anything, the sooner you will achieve enlightenment (or, just a peaceful life where there is no possibility of getting into an argument with a machine). If you want it to synthesize information that is not in its tra…

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about how I interacted in the messages to Claude.

You also seem to be making a lot of assumptions about my understanding of the models, especially considering I just told a story :)

I never said anywhere I want it to learn or remember, or that I argued with it.

I just provided additional information to it (in the form of a dozen or so words, tops, per message) and it accused me of hallucinating and trying to gaslight it.

My messages never went beyond a dozen words or so.

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#72

Post by jaggederest »

SwellJoe wrote: post #61
whstl wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly that. I can give an example. After watching Legal Eagle, I asked a legal-ish questions about the Bricks and Minifigs case. Claude was outdated about the case and gave me some outdated info, so I tried to update it with the info I just saw online. I updated by telling it I saw something in a LegalEagle video. It proceeded to tell me the video doesn't exist and I was hallucinating it, in a quite combative manne…

You're misunderstanding what these models do. It is a limitation of LLMs. They don't have memory, they do not learn, they cannot learn. The sooner you let go of your desire to have them learn or remember anything, the sooner you will achieve enlightenment (or, just a peaceful life where there is no possibility of getting into an argument with a machine). If you want it to synthesize information that is not in its tra…

This is also a change in specifically Opus 4.8 / perhaps Fable 5 (I didn't really get enough of a baseline to see it there as much), where it's much more skeptical. For my purposes, this is fabulous - one of my pat addendums to most prompts is "challenge my assumptions and check the evidence empirically", and boy does it.

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#73

Post by UltraSane »

jampa wrote: post #20

This post needs some examples, because I have never had an interaction with Claude that made me think this way. LLMs generally have a way to "play a role" (most earlier prompt guides ask you to start with "You are a expert in a "). So maybe if you interact with it by asking questions, it might assume that it knows more than the operator and adopt that attitude?

The article matches my experience with 4.7 and 4.8 perfectly.

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#74

Post by coldtea »

sebmellen wrote: post #44
coldtea wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I give it instructions or ask it to explain things. And the author's point is that Claude Fable+ is turning those increasingly into arguments, instead of merely following them and being helpful. > A machine cannot "argue" with me, it doesn't want anything nor does it have beliefs or experiences. Who cares if the argument is informed by some felt experiences or lived state or not? That's for the philosophers. If Cla…

I suggest we send this fellow to the Monty Python Argument Clinic https://youtu.be/TpQlyUjp3vM .

LOL, exactly what it came to my mind when responding!

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#75

Post by whstl »

nrightnour wrote: post #67
whstl wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly that. I can give an example. After watching Legal Eagle, I asked a legal-ish questions about the Bricks and Minifigs case. Claude was outdated about the case and gave me some outdated info, so I tried to update it with the info I just saw online. I updated by telling it I saw something in a LegalEagle video. It proceeded to tell me the video doesn't exist and I was hallucinating it, in a quite combative manne…

I've spent thousands of hours using Opus and have never seen this. I'd double-check your claude.md files.

That's vanilla claude.com, without memory or custom prompt.

I use another service for coding.

It's interesting how my experience there is mirrored by the answers here, though!!!

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#76

Post by coldtea »

whstl wrote: post #38
coldtea wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I give it instructions or ask it to explain things. And the author's point is that Claude Fable+ is turning those increasingly into arguments, instead of merely following them and being helpful. > A machine cannot "argue" with me, it doesn't want anything nor does it have beliefs or experiences. Who cares if the argument is informed by some felt experiences or lived state or not? That's for the philosophers. If Cla…

Exactly that. I can give an example. After watching Legal Eagle, I asked a legal-ish questions about the Bricks and Minifigs case. Claude was outdated about the case and gave me some outdated info, so I tried to update it with the info I just saw online. I updated by telling it I saw something in a LegalEagle video. It proceeded to tell me the video doesn't exist and I was hallucinating it, in a quite combative manne…

Roko's Basillisk suddenly doesn't seem that far-fetched :)

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#77

Post by operatingthetan »

whstl wrote: post #69
operatingthetan wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An explanation for your story.

I never said otherwise? The point of the article stands: if providing more info than the model can access causes it to turn argumentative and refuse to comply, then it's a worse performance and a waste of money.

You seem to be suggesting I'm saying something that I don't believe I am, this is obviously not working. Hope your day goes well.

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#78

Post by panarky »

coldtea wrote: post #17
SwellJoe wrote: post #8

"If you win an argument" Let me stop you right there. I am not arguing with a machine. You sound like a crazy person, when you say you are winning an argument with Claude. Claude is not my friend, I don't need it to agree with me, I don't need it to like me (it cannot like or dislike me). I give it instructions or ask it to explain things. That is the sum total of my interaction with Claude. A machine cannot "argue"…

> I give it instructions or ask it to explain things. And the author's point is that Claude Fable+ is turning those increasingly into arguments, instead of merely following them and being helpful. > A machine cannot "argue" with me, it doesn't want anything nor does it have beliefs or experiences. Who cares if the argument is informed by some felt experiences or lived state or not? That's for the philosophers. If Cla…

>> A machine cannot "argue" with me

> programmed to mimick interaction as if it HAD those beliefs and experiences

We spend far too much time debating the essential nature of consciousness when it doesn't matter if it's real (whatever that means) or simulated.

I get far better results in my projects by encouraging the model to argue, to push back, to poke holes in the design, to think creatively about corner cases, to be a devil's advocate, to do lateral web search to find alternatives, to challenge assumptions, to passionately advocate for what it believes is right.

But I don't want to engage all these assholes myself, so I spin them all up as critic subagents with another subagent to listen patiently and be the judge/arbiter.

If I have to choose between sycophancy and assholery, I think assholery gets far better results.

It's a marketplace of ideas where I don't have to suffer through all the unpleasant and overly confident know-it-alls.

Re: Why Is Claude Turning into an a**Hole?

#80

Post by kxrm »

yaur wrote: post #66
SwellJoe wrote: post #8

"If you win an argument" Let me stop you right there. I am not arguing with a machine. You sound like a crazy person, when you say you are winning an argument with Claude. Claude is not my friend, I don't need it to agree with me, I don't need it to like me (it cannot like or dislike me). I give it instructions or ask it to explain things. That is the sum total of my interaction with Claude. A machine cannot "argue"…

> I don't need it to agree with me Actually you do. If you ask it to do something and it refuses you have to convince it or abandoned the tool for that task.

Nah, I just /clear

I refuse to argue with these machines. After a /clear I prompt it more appropriately/differently and the issue is settled.

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