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Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#211

Post by s1artibartfast »

mfuzzey wrote: post #134

Interesting that those supporting the motion claimed it was because there was no space left for new arrivals and that it put too much pressure on infrastructure like trains and yet the largest support came from the countryside which proably has less overcrowding and the cities were greatly against it. Makes me think that "overcrowding" wasn't thre real reason...

Probably a pretty big selection bias there. People who don't like crowding and want space are more likely to live in the country. People already living in a dense City are less sensitive to more of the same.

I have a friend who voted yes and he lives outside of Basel because he thinks the city is too crowded. If you've been there you might find that amusing. His most vocal complaint is about too many people on Swiss hiking trails and difficulty in Booking huts.

More recently, he was laid off by a multinational pharma company where most of the Swiss office is now German immigrants.

That's not to say culture isn't a factor, but it would be a mistake to apply American ideas of racism to it

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#212

Post by danielspace23 »

comrade1234 wrote: post #207

Things were fine during Covid. Now that the tourists are back the trains and trams are packed. The marketing for this campaign specifically talked about trains being packed but it should have focused more on how Swiss natives have to move out of Zurich to find an affordable place to jive, but the SVP would never focus on Zurich because theyre unpopular here.

What do tourists in trains have to do with population caps? Tourists are not registered citizens, they exist regardless of population caps.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#213

Post by InsideOutSanta »

Saline9515 wrote: post #127
mrtksn wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that’s the dilemma of the rich countries. They want their life be taken care by the people they don’t want around and if they have to have them around they want them be the kids from people from their kind but not theirs. It’s a special kind of NIMBY, not necessarily xenophobia. More like a class thing, they want other rich people’s kids do the shitty jobs so they don’t have to have these poor people doing the j…

They don't want their son to do it because immigrants prevent the salaries of those jobs to rise naturally. Mass immigration is capitalism's answer to the Baumol law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect The "locals don't want to do those jobs" comptemptuous rethoric of the bourgeois left has always been false, locals don't want to clean the sewers for the minimal wage, but will do it for a proper salary. My g…

Immigrants in Switzerland don't "live like slaves," and I'm perfectly happy I don't have to clean the sewers, thank you very much.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#214

Post by lovich »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #197
lovich wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m somewhat sympathetic with that critique on mass immigration in regards to dropping wages at the low end, but as I never see the anti immigration folk push for regulating or attacking the companies hiring said immigrants, I am comfortable just assuming it’s racism. Everytime I get into the weeds with anti immigration people I feel like I run through the IQ meme with “it’s just racism” on the low and high ends and…

You think it is better to have people complaining about companies hiring completely legal migrants than seeking to reform the system in the first place? Governmental policy is the appropriate place to focus attention - not Twitter outrage campaigns about random companies following the laws that were democratically put in place

I didn’t say it was better. I said it was indicative that it was just racism.

When I see ICE raid a farm or factory and take a bunch of illegal immigrants to praise, but the company has no consequences other than losing their employees and the anti immigration crowd is silent about that, then I feel like it’s just racism.

Also I would expect a push for limiting legal immigration from the camp that would be legitimate in arguing for less immigration to keep domestic wages higher, not necessarily pushing against the hiring of people who got past the rule system.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#215

Post by like_any_other »

BrenBarn wrote: post #154
Saline9515 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't want their son to do it because immigrants prevent the salaries of those jobs to rise naturally. Mass immigration is capitalism's answer to the Baumol law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect The "locals don't want to do those jobs" comptemptuous rethoric of the bourgeois left has always been false, locals don't want to clean the sewers for the minimal wage, but will do it for a proper salary. My g…

The problem there isn't immigration, it's exploitation of workers. If the person paying that Sri Lankan were to go to jail for his violation of labor law, the situation would be different.

> The problem there isn't immigration, it's exploitation of workers.

Which is made easier by immigration. In addition to the simple law of supply & demand, it also impedes unionization:

Whole Foods' heat map says lower rates of racial diversity increase unionization risks - https://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-tracks-unionizat...

Immigrants Reduce Unionization in the United States - https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-reduce-unionization-uni...

Racial Diversity and Union Organizing in the United States, 1999–2008 - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0019793915602253

Amusingly, the ComputerWeekly article (citing the Business Insider article) omits the direction in which diversity affects unionization risk [1], while the two wikipedia articles (again citing the same Business Insider article) [2,3] strongly imply that diversity increases unionization, so the opposite of what their source is saying!

[1] These “risk scores” are calculated from over two dozen metrics – including employee “loyalty”, turnover, racial diversity, “tipline” calls to human resources and proximity to a union office – and shows the likelihood of employees in that location forming or joining a union. - https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252481961/Amazons-Whole-...

[2] Factors including racial diversity, proximity to other unions, poverty levels in the surrounding community, and calls to the NLRB were named as contributors to "unionization risk." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon#Opposition...

[3] Factors including racial diversity, proximity to other unions, poverty levels in the surrounding community and calls to the National Labor Relations Board were named as contributors to "unionization risk". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_and_trade_unions

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#216

Post by Saline9515 »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #213
Saline9515 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't want their son to do it because immigrants prevent the salaries of those jobs to rise naturally. Mass immigration is capitalism's answer to the Baumol law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect The "locals don't want to do those jobs" comptemptuous rethoric of the bourgeois left has always been false, locals don't want to clean the sewers for the minimal wage, but will do it for a proper salary. My g…

Immigrants in Switzerland don't "live like slaves," and I'm perfectly happy I don't have to clean the sewers, thank you very much.

Mainly because immigrating to CH is actually not that easy. Compare that with France or Germany.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#217

Post by aranelsurion »

snowpid wrote: post #123
aranelsurion wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany Is it? Asking out of curiosity, from a cursory look both countries require self-sufficiency, language (in fact Switzerland looks a little easier on this), no criminal background, an integration test to be taken (and both seem easy) and time in the country. Only major difference seems to me is Germany takes 5 years in paper (more like 6-7 in reali…

Switzerland want less than B1? I find B1 barely can have a normal conversation.

B1 speaking, A2 writing if my token predictor is correct. :) -- which is a little less than Germany (B1 both)

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#218

Post by WarmWash »

BloondAndDoom wrote: post #104
WarmWash wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the overall ratio, but my experience working with many immigrant workers is that they had no real intention of staying and instead are just arbitraging cost of living between [rich country] and [poor country] for their family back home. Emphasis on home .

Sounds like you have a really limited interaction with immigrants. I’m lifelong immigrant (4 different countries) in every single one of those countries majority of immigrants want to stay. Permanent residency is a constant conversation topic. There are definitely immigrants thinking like your explanation, but definitely a minority. .

It seems to depend a lot on whether it's skilled or unskilled work.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#219

Post by Larrikin »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #201
Larrikin wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants do not suppress wages, business owners do. The solution there is the same solution as the US. If the US introduced a (for example) 4x median salary fine for every year an employer employed someone not legally eligible to work the problem would fix itself. If they did not keep records assume 5 years or whenever the person's visa expired, since that is the most common case of illegal immigration. But the bus…

This is the best argument in the thread against allowing immigration. That sounds awful. Better to avoid by keeping them out

Why not vote to legalize slavery again instead if you want to take the worst possible take on the argument.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#220

Post by tmtvl »

kgwgk wrote: post #204
lovich wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m somewhat sympathetic with that critique on mass immigration in regards to dropping wages at the low end, but as I never see the anti immigration folk push for regulating or attacking the companies hiring said immigrants, I am comfortable just assuming it’s racism. Everytime I get into the weeds with anti immigration people I feel like I run through the IQ meme with “it’s just racism” on the low and high ends and…

> I never see the anti immigration folk push for regulating or attacking the companies hiring said immigrants, I am comfortable just assuming it’s racism. How wouldn't it be just as racist to attack companies for hiring immigrants?

I think what GP means is 'attack those companies for not paying decent wages', not 'attack those companies for hiring immigrants'.
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