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Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
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Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#42Do people use python for new projects apart from ML stuff which hasn't moved to all-native yet? My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial. I guess Python is an ok target for agentic coding, but my god do look Claude's commit messages preten…
Half or more of the scientific research community live and breathe Python. Granted, it's Python 3.12, as 3.13 broke most of the C API, and everything COBOL and Fortran just about ground to a halt. But new projects are spun up constantly.
3.13 broke most of the C API
3.14 broke GC
I guess these kinds of priorities are exactly why Python is not my favorite programming language and why you have tens of Python versions installed on any machine. Not to talk about the Python 2 -> 3 drama that was also about fetishising syntax and pureness over pragmatism, installed base, and respect for existing code.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#43Do people use python for new projects apart from ML stuff which hasn't moved to all-native yet? My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial. I guess Python is an ok target for agentic coding, but my god do look Claude's commit messages preten…
It's the classic worse is better.
The slowest of all dynamic scripting languages. Breaking ABI's and API's left and right all the time. Not able to implement basic performance optims. Their infrastructure (pip) getting worse and worse, getting everyone to install private venv's for every app, leading to missing security updates, because updates just break everything.
People just love trouble.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#44Do people use python for new projects apart from ML stuff which hasn't moved to all-native yet? My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial. I guess Python is an ok target for agentic coding, but my god do look Claude's commit messages preten…
Half or more of the scientific research community live and breathe Python. Granted, it's Python 3.12, as 3.13 broke most of the C API, and everything COBOL and Fortran just about ground to a halt. But new projects are spun up constantly.
Python is the new Matlab and Mathematica combined.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#45Do people use python for new projects apart from ML stuff which hasn't moved to all-native yet? My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial. I guess Python is an ok target for agentic coding, but my god do look Claude's commit messages preten…
> My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial.
Some people just don't have the experience you do, "its proponent keep praising it in denial", can we have a better level of debate, come on now.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#46Do people use python for new projects apart from ML stuff which hasn't moved to all-native yet? My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial. I guess Python is an ok target for agentic coding, but my god do look Claude's commit messages preten…
> apart from ML stuff
More and more applications need to use ML these days. So Python use will only grow.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#47Do people use python for new projects apart from ML stuff which hasn't moved to all-native yet? My experience with Python is a really bad one for professional work: it's chaotic and slow, and has by far the worst versioning and packaging story of any mainstream language, yet its proponents keep praising it in denial. I guess Python is an ok target for agentic coding, but my god do look Claude's commit messages preten…
I'm split on Django--it's ok but I don't love it.
I don't think it's chaotic. I won't deny it's somewhat slow however usually anything performance sensitive gets shoved in a native code extension anyway.
As for packaging, I haven't had any problems with poetry or uv. The only time I ever had issues was with Windows in corporate environments where wheels were unavailable and it was also basically impossible to get the right toolchain installed for native code. However, not being able to install a compiler is not really a Python problem
Claude Code has a setting to change the git template so it doesn't attribute itself or you can also commit manually.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Half or more of the scientific research community live and breathe Python. Granted, it's Python 3.12, as 3.13 broke most of the C API, and everything COBOL and Fortran just about ground to a halt. But new projects are spun up constantly.
Python is the new Matlab and Mathematica combined.
Not anywhere near Mathematica, but a good replacement for Matlab. From a daily user of all those.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
The options are a) do work to reduce issues as they come up b) appease the vocal complaints A takes work, guts, and risk. Option b was chosen with the GC work basically saddled with so much process it’s never going to change. Python has a very storied history of being very committee driven design so the committee did the committee thing.
I do find the BDFL approach much better for language design. You might disagree with the direction of the language, but there is usually a "philosophy" or "taste" driven by one person that tends to be consistent over time. In fact, I think Guido himself resigned due to the experience he had trying to get a PEP through the committee.
> In fact, I think Guido himself resigned due to the experience he had trying to get a PEP through the committee.
If you're referring to the steering council, that group was created in response to Guido stepping down.
He stepped down partly in response to the changing nature of online discussions around changes to the language. He just didn't want to be at the center of every polarizing discussion anymore. I think he also recognized that the transition needed to happen at some point, and that was as good a time as any.
Re: Python 3.14 garbage collection rigamarole
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
Python is the new Matlab and Mathematica combined.
Not anywhere near Mathematica, but a good replacement for Matlab. From a daily user of all those.
You are right in a way, but don't completely dismiss SymPy. Though I can see why you would never try it properly if you have a Mathematica license.