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There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

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Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#411

Post by flyingcircus3 »

YesBox wrote: post #365
uludag wrote: post #21

> I actually have another draft post in the barrel about how I think we should see a resurgence of the ‘flash game’ renaissance because it has become so much easier to make fun little games with AI tooling. I have been lurking on the aigamedev subreddit to see exactly what sort of games people are coming up with and I can say I have been incredibly disappointing. I've been faithfully trying the games people post and…

My bet is working through an abstraction layer (LLMs) will make crafting a fun game more difficult. The art of designing a (great) game is in the details. English is not sufficient to communicate the individual strokes of a brush on canvas. Also, thank you for sharing your experience. I recently joined that subreddit just to see what people are creating and I too have been unimpressed.

For months, I've been thinking of how to express or name this idea that people misname the way other people use coding agents and make bad assumptions about what sorts of tasks they could be used for, seemingly all in the service of demonstrating how derivative the end results must be. So thank you for whatever you've done to help dislodge the blocker for me.

I think there is a model in a lot of people's minds that AI coding is exclusively handing off the thought processes and ideation processes to the agent, which seems to foreclose on the possibility that it offers the least friction of any other available method to translate the users thoughts into useful artifacts, some of which are the working software that is the primary goal of development. The model says something like "I don't know what it needs to consist of, but make me this thing I'll know when I see.". But there are also plenty of people who have spent the time learning these skills before AI came along, and remain capable of performing those feats without the ai, but realize they are even more capable to do those same things with AI, in volumes that would have been previously prohibitively tedious. And now that they have the tedium wrangled, they are freed from all of these arguments that start: we can't do that because it would take forever.

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#412

Post by aesthesia »

zahlman wrote: post #369
NiloCK wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that time, nobody believed a dead internet was technically feasible. Maybe this is hard to remember now. The "danger" was in terms of spam / misinformation proliferation, not the same category of capabilities adjacent risks current discussed. You can hold your own opinions on spam/misinformation as a problem , but to say there was no credibly anticipated outsized downside to a sudden jump in human-passing text gen…

It's amazing to me that people actually thought GPT2 produced "human-passing" text, while I'm still tripping over obvious LLMisms in the output of recent models on a daily basis. (It's also amazing to me that it took mere minutes for this observation, deep in a sub-thread, to get downvoted without any reply, with no obvious reason for it.)

LLM-isms are much less prevalent in base models, which is what GPT-2 was. It had significant problems with maintaining coherence, but GPT-2 generated text did not have the obvious tells of today's LLMs.

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#413

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

rdbl27 wrote: post #378
Guvante wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reductionist "if only the government didn't get involved" doesn't work unless you presume no government is beneficial (it is not since you just recreate all the bad parts of government anyway) You can be critical of the policy of export controls and the meaning of them in modern day but saying it is a problem with the government in general is nonsensical.

The problem is not a presumption that government can't ever be good. The problem is that the team you personally think is "good" won't be in charge forever. Everyone loves enabling broad government authority when people they like happen to be in charge. Sooner or later, a government that is "bad" (for any possible definition of "bad" that you personally approve of) will someday be in charge. Then, suddenly, enabling…

I don't think this hypocrisy is as common as you believe it to be. I think the current government is extraordinarily bad - I'm on record calling them fascists and murderers quite a lot - and nevertheless it must be allowed to have this authority. There's no better option.

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#415

Post by yoyohello13 »

slopinthebag wrote: post #409
EvanAnderson wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think everyone does see that there is good government and bad government. I only know the time and place I've lived in (United States, born in 1977), but I feel like the trope of "all government is bad" has been the rallying cry of conservatives since the Reagan era. I'm convinced enough people have grown up hearing that trope that your assumption is incorrect. I think a ton of people believe there can only be ba…

[flagged]

Bullshit. There is a spectrum of good and bad. If you truly believed all government is bad, then please feel free to move to a banana republic.

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#416

Post by slopinthebag »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #415
slopinthebag wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Bullshit. There is a spectrum of good and bad. If you truly believed all government is bad, then please feel free to move to a banana republic.

Name a good government.

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#417

Post by underlipton »

verandaguy wrote: post #354
mkl95 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> belongs to a party that is pretty much advertising on wanting to be a smaller government that gets involved less. It's the other way around. Americans voted for Trump hoping he'd improve the country's economy and address the cost-of-living crisis. For example, one of the main proposals was to make ICE bigger and use it to deport as many people as possible, hoping it'd give back jobs to Americans. Another key propos…

Right, but both of those examples are terrible ideas on their face. On migrant workers, much of the US economy is underpinned by the assumption that cheap manual labor is abundant, with the implicit assumption that this tier of labour isn’t going to try and clamour for workers rights (which is a whole other story, but whatever). It’s (part of) the reason the US continues to have globally extremely cheap gas even as t…

Not that I disagree, but it should be asked: Retribution for what? The answers are, generally:

>COVID restrictions

>The state of the economy

>The state of culture, broadly-speaking

>Letting a black man become president, and the attendant ramifications (intrinsic and extrinsic, cause and effect)

I'll leave it to readers to judge. (You can probably guess what I, as a progressive, think of these impetuses, in driving half-ish of the country to vote for everything Trump embodies. And, frankly, what drove the other half-ish of the country to vote for Biden and Harris.)

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#419

Post by underlipton »

pluralmonad wrote: post #284
graemep wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is worse. No government at all implies anarchy which is worse that all but the very worst governments, and from which IMO some form of government will emerge anyway.

Why is highly organized/systematized violence preferable?

The earnest answer is that it's more predictable than random violence, and its predictability makes it somewhat more preventable.

That said, there is a tendency for a system to drift away from this predictability as it's subjected to "review" by people who really, really want a particular outcome, regardless of the systemically-proscribed conclusion. "Bespoke" judgments for edge cases undermines the principle of predictability, which makes a return to "random" "coercion" desirable for some (as those who coerce in anarchy generally have less absolute power than a large system does).

But then, how do you show mercy (people are driven to do so) in a zero-tolerance environment?

This is the tension.

Re: There is a shadow hanging over this Fable thing

#420

Post by bombcar »

thsbrown wrote: post #162
uludag wrote: post #21

> I actually have another draft post in the barrel about how I think we should see a resurgence of the ‘flash game’ renaissance because it has become so much easier to make fun little games with AI tooling. I have been lurking on the aigamedev subreddit to see exactly what sort of games people are coming up with and I can say I have been incredibly disappointing. I've been faithfully trying the games people post and…

Indie dev here. Making games is hard it is one of the few spots in software where all disciples have to come together to make something compelling. I've done a lot of programming on various sub sections of the disciple and it still remains to me the hardest one to crack for AI. It's undoubtedly am incredible tool for accelerating output but I think it's going to be the hardest for ai to commoditize as a whole.

Making games is hard for the greatest game designers and programmers of all time.

We have had any number of quite competently programmed absolute flops.

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