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Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

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211–220 of 641 posts

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#211
post #41

I predict that this will be flagged very soon. I would love for HN to publish some data on likes/flags, even anonymous IDs with some infos like account age and number of posts. Sure someome will argue things here get flagged cause they are political, but I don't buy that.

>Sure someome will argue things here get flagged cause they are political, but I don't buy that. Are you saying that this isn't political? It's literally about politics. The comments section will be predictable and it will be flagged for that. Do you disagree?

Just because something is political and is flagged, does not mean it was flagged because it was political.

HN has plenty of unflagged political topics.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#212
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BlackRock is one of the largest shareholders of Palantir. Larry Fink doesn't hide his support of Israel's war efforts. The proof is right there, you barely have to look for it. Of course, I'm sure none of this matters, because modern progressives walk a very fine line between taking a moral stance against the horrors committed by Israel, while strictly being allowed to criticize only the Israeli government itself as…

> the polar opposite of how Russia's war efforts have been criticized, in which every Russian citizen is often assumed to be complicit in some way Well they’re wrong. I know many Russians and every one is talented and kind, unsurprisingly every one speaks against the war. The same (flawed) argument can be made that every Palestinian is complicit in the atrocities committed by Hamas. Or that every American is complici…

I completely agree, I was just trying to make a point about the inconsistency between criticism of Russia and criticism of Israel at the peak of both nations' wars. Unconditional hatred towards every citizen for their government's actions is obviously not logical.

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. You shouldn't expect every person who is a Russian citizen or of Russian descent to support Putin, but if a person of Russian descent does openly support Putin, it's safe to assume the two things might be correlated. Similarly, if a person of Jewish descent openly supports the Israeli government, acting like those things can't possibly be correlated doesn't make sense, either.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#213
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's important to note that the Israeli government does work very hard to conflate Zionism with Judaism, (which itself seems antisemitic to me), making it harder for some to separate the two. Yes, they are trying their hardest with their actions to fuel a new way of antisemitism. Turns out if you are a religious fundamental colony that occupies territory based on the bible, that gives bad rap to the whole r…

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You don't know your history. Zionism started in the late 19th century as a nationalist and colonialist movement; by 1917 it had already secured the support of the (soon to be) British administration of Palestine for the creation of a Jewish state there; mass immigration was already underway and flooded with hundreds of thousands of colonists a territory that had had almost no Jewish presence for a thousand years or more. Ethnic cleansing of the native population was already in the plans, as shown by the private diaries of the father of Zionism Theodore Herzl.

When in 1948 the UN formulated its partition plan (i.e. the proposal to expropriate the Palestinians of half of their land to give it to the Jewish immigrants), the land that the proposal assigned to the Jewish state had a 45% Palestinian population, which the newborn state immediately proceeded to ethnically cleanse. Besides, Israel never formally accepted the borders of the partition plan and immediately set to conquer new territory (plan Dalet).

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#214
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I'll direct you to the Nat Turner rebellion [1]. Or the practice of "necklacing" in apartheid South AFrica [2]. Or the Mau Mau rebellion [3]. As Nelson Mandela put it [4]: > A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire…

> October 7 was the culmination of (then) 75 years of [...]

Nothing you might say after this can justify massacring, kidnapping or raping civilians.

> the denial of clean water, the denial of electricity

This is pretty unreasonable framing. Israel withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind valuable modern infrastructure like desalination plants, and then provided free water and electricity even to an enemy who constantly attacked it.

Hamas, on the other hand, proudly filmed themselves digging up pipes to turn into rockets for terrorizing Israel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#215
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This excludes US based groups lobbying for Israeli interests, which does not count under official spending by Israel, so it is not an accurate representation of the lobbying effort in the interests of Israel.

That seems like the categorically correct thing to do, for the same reason that (for example) a domestic Korean-American nonprofit that lobbies for Korean interests doesn’t get counted as foreign money or influence. (Perhaps it should be! But it should be consistent, whatever it is.)

It’s very different.

I was adjacent to state level politics for a long time. The German, Korean and French economic development organizations would come around every now and again with promotional events coordinated with their embassy to promote partnerships and business opportunities. Sometimes they had lobbyists focused on general relationship building, more often for specific issues.

The Israeli ground game is different. American PACs affiliated with or specifically “not affiliated with, but always talking about” Israeli interests show up at every level of government - a good friend is a town board member of a big suburban town and they call on him, and he refuses the contributions so will likely get primaried.

The real difference is information awareness. There is a CRM somewhere the ground guys have access to, and relationships are cultivated and used. My buddy is being targeted becuase there’s a good chance he’ll be in the state legislature someday. There’s a pipeline to get targeted American politicians to tour Israel for whatever reason. When critical attention is focused on this stuff, the reaction is fast and painful for the media outlet or political actor.

The only thing close to this is China, who does similar stuff with a different playbook. They’ve been caught embedding agents of one sort or another in California and New York governments at a high level, as well as places like Florida or within government contractors with lower level people.

Note that we’ve purged the FBI counterintelligence division, so the brazenness of the “bad” stuff will get worse - nobody is watching.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#216
post #189
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure it's just a coincidence, though. Yes, actually. The Israeli state is not synonymous with Judaism, so let's not promote the classic "All Jewish bankers are greedy and evil" antisemitic trope. Blackrock and Blackstone are of course evil in the same ways as all other major investment firms, but if you believe the Jewish identity of some of their founders has anything to do with that or if they have anything t…

BlackRock is one of the largest shareholders of Palantir. Larry Fink doesn't hide his support of Israel's war efforts. The proof is right there, you barely have to look for it. Of course, I'm sure none of this matters, because modern progressives walk a very fine line between taking a moral stance against the horrors committed by Israel, while strictly being allowed to criticize only the Israeli government itself as…

> criticize only the Israeli ... detached from its ... religion to avoid "antisemitism"

Because Israel, despite its claims, does not talk for every Jew, and tarring every Jew with the sins of the state is antisemitic. No weaselly air quotes required.

It shouldn't be a tough concept to hold but so many do, just as many Islamophobics do when some dickhead in a cave does something awful.

My broader point was you need to check yourself. Perpetrating these lazy racist stereotypes just forces moderate people into tribes and the discussion never moves on.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#217
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.opensecrets.org/ Totals since 2016 Country Total Spending China $562,676,323 Japan $504,111,211 Liberia $432,968,270 Saudi Arabia $421,890,448 Marshall Islands $382,012,024 South Korea $363,237,700 Bahamas $293,205,139 United Arab Emirates $269,529,107 Qatar $269,260,794 Israel $215,168,616 So for small countries UAE and Qatar(no surprise here, they just gifted 1 billion airplane to Trump)

This excludes US based groups lobbying for Israeli interests, which does not count under official spending by Israel, so it is not an accurate representation of the lobbying effort in the interests of Israel.

This is a reference to Americans. Americans choosing to freely donate to groups/causes they support and Americans being involved in American politics.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#218
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps it should be! But it should be consistent, whatever it is. Agreed. Any lobbying that centers on the interests of a foreign country should IMO count as foreign lobbying, I have no problem in including Korean-Americans, Kenyan-Americans etc. in that too.

Well, so here's the question: what counts as the interests of a foreign country? AIPAC's entire lobbying stance is that its positions are mutually beneficial to both the US and Israel, and this is the stance that every other national/ethnic affinity group in the US uses as well. Put another way: it seems very risky to allow the federal government to determine the propriety of political speech just because it happens…

The difference is the nature of the lobbying and the volume. Follow the rules.

An egregious, non-controversial example of things going poorly is NYC Mayor Adams and Turkey. He basically accepted bribes and favors from the Turkish government and their proxies for specific actions.

A “doing it right” example that wouldn’t have been controversial until recently is Denmark. They mostly focus on direct diplomatic policy lobbying, and leverage consultants to promote mostly tourism. Their affiliations are known and registered. Now they hire K-Street lobbyists to influence policy objectives re: Greenland, etc.

The difference is that when the papers found out about Adams being a crook… that didn’t turn into accusations of racism and fomenting sectarian hatred. In the AIPAC example, there will be a both a legitimate visceral response from Americans and astroturf from lots of prominent people.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#219
I always thought this was a new thing until I read The Palestine Laboratory by Antony Loewenstein. Over more than 50 years Israel has developed a global export industry around military, surveillance, and security technologies that were developed and tested through its control of Palestinian territories, and that these technologies are then marketed and sold worldwide. Buyers are often bad actors that use it to kill and suppress other populations including in Armenia/Azerbaijan, Myanmar, Rwanda genocide, authoritarian governments and many other examples cited in the book.

Re: Israeli firm BlackCore suspected of meddling in New York and Scotland votes

#220
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDF conscripts astroturf on social media all day, and a lot of people do the same for free on behalf of the concept of Israel Don’t worry about the deflections and karma flagging censorship as consensus, because its not Jewish and Jewish Israeli people are raised to be afraid of the entire world, and think losing a perception game will result in their eradication perpetuated by everyone around them. This is due to a…

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> Independent of who is in the right there, they are losing the media war.

Honestly, I like that nobody's getting fired anymore. I like that consensus has shifted on consensus-driven forums until the IDF conscripts wake up. Generations of that and nobody's opinion actually changed, people independently perceived the same things and speaking was merely suppressed by private sector and communities. Partially by our own governments too.

Now the behavior of Israeli administrations and some settlers is all so indefensible that people can sort their thoughts out about things together, publicly.

Even the astroturfing is disingenuous, people are saying the exact same points that Jewish Israeli protesters are saying towards their own government in Israel. But the fear of non-Jewish people flipping on them is even greater, so when we say the same things its paraded around as something that it isn't.

Just get US out of it.

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