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Open source AI must win

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401–410 of 538 posts

Re: Open source AI must win

#401
post #317
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh, there really needs to be some legal precedent set that makes model distillation a legal activity. If the model makers can rip everyone else's work and launder information as if it's their own without giving credit back to the original creators, I don't see why it should be illegal to distill the models. It's the same thing the frontier model makers are doing to IP everywhere else.

I agree. But this won't happen in the US because Anthropic / OpenAI is a big ol economic recession risk because we levered ourselves to the tits and put our chips on them.

OAI and Anthropic can actually both tank, MS would pick up OAI's IP, Amazon would pick up Anthropic's, and Google would keep cruising. We'd have a model plateau for a while but ultimate AI would keep on chugging.

If AI fails as a technology, it's going to lead to a great depression and probably either a revolution or WWIII.

Re: Open source AI must win

#402
It won in my house/my business right from the start. (Well, open weights, at least — which is an uncomfortable nuance.)

I have never understood the willingness to make the functioning of or development of a product so completely dependent on the secret sauce of one of two big unprofitable, inscrutable startups.

It really defies sensible engineering principles to do that. So I was never going to do it. I'm exploring AI now but because I have decided that open weights make it a good use of my time.

It's bad enough that any given business often ends up beholden to a single payment platform and the policies of two US credit card providers.

I guess it is the freelancer in me but I always feel nervous when I am asked to put so much energy into studying or learning someone's product, rather than the underlying technology. I still remember the days when Microsoft was pretty much lobbying academic departments with promises of access to the NT source code. I remember a senior figure in our own saying that Linux was a sideshow and access to NT would make us relevant.

More control over destiny is always necessary, and I remind myself and others that the "state of the art" is behind the "cutting edge". Progress is made at the cutting edge, but there is risk of damage. Engineering should focus on building on the state of the art, not on hitching a ride on someone else's progress.

Re: Open source AI must win

#403
post #400

This, and distributed LLM inference. We are at a point where no single person can setup a rig to run a SOTA model, it is just too expensive. So we must build and adopt frameworks that allow individuals to share resources to run SOTA models in a distributed manner. That way they will also be non-censorable by governments. Also The only way to prevent that one entity weaponizes it, is by giving EVERYONE access to it.

yes, it also complements the geohot idea behind the tinybox

What is that? I can’t seem to figure out what the use case is vs buying off the shelf?

I think it’s a great project but the communication isn’t clear to me.

Re: Open source AI must win

#404
post #333

A question I've got which I've been wondering about, not sure if anyone else has been thinking about it, what actually made Fable so effective? From what I could tell from the very little time that I had to interact with it, it's instruction following seemed more consistent The other thing that comes to mind is a lot of people commented on how driven it was, so I'm wondering whether figuring out how to keep existing…

Fable had mostly the same pre-training data as Opus, and it's likely they're distilled from the same source. The difference is that it's a larger model with more post training on "dangerous" stuff they didn't want in the core model, and "long" task RL.

Re: Open source AI must win

#405
post #402

It won in my house/my business right from the start. (Well, open weights, at least — which is an uncomfortable nuance.) I have never understood the willingness to make the functioning of or development of a product so completely dependent on the secret sauce of one of two big unprofitable, inscrutable startups. It really defies sensible engineering principles to do that. So I was never going to do it. I'm exploring A…

I feel like "open source" in this context is, as you say, an uncomfortable nuance; the tooling (llama.cpp, et al) is open but useless without weights.

The weights are extraordinarily expensive "capital" that is donated by big organizations who are all at war with each other.

I don't know that it will ever be possible for, for instance, archive.org, to make truly open weights. And, other than archive.org, I can't imagine any other "open source" organization (freebsd? apache?) being in any position at all to make truly open weights.

Maybe governments, government organizations, or universities.

None of whom are currently funded, mandated, inclined, or particularly interested in dumping the money into buying the infrastructure needed to make weights.

Re: Open source AI must win

#406
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On this very thread you already have people talking about "open weights" and similar nonsense. What is open about them? They're free to download, but that hardly qualifies as open. Where is the source? Where are the instructions to modify and build your own? I'd never though I'd have to utter the expression "open as in beer". The blatant attempt at manipulating vocabulary here is... quite blatant.

I'm a strong proponent of Open Source (TM) but I disagree with this take. The weights are the useful artifact here. You can modify them, fine tune them and do what you want with them. Unlike binary software there is nothing limiting that. It is also useful to have access to the training recipes and to some extent the data. But I'm of the opinion that learning on something is not copyright infringement, so there are m…

The analogy falls apart very quickly. Without the training data, your modifications amount to virtually nothing compared to what these "versions" are, and the idea that you can maintain and improve on these models without the continual support of the company that owns the training data AND harnesses AND in general build instructions is not very credible. This is why it's not rare that they "dump" old versions as freeware but at some point switch to not distributing them, and mostly get away with it. As this is really not open, and the threat of an effective fork is therefore non-existent, the pressure for any one who has released freeware models to "go SaaS" is too high.

While if "Open Office" switches to a more problematic license at some point, the existing source has all you need for an organization to support the project without regard to the original company (this has happened already!). If Qwen decides to stop distributing models for download, you're basically stuck, _even_ if you have unlimited resources, it's not clear how the released weights help you; your best bet is to start almost from scratch. This has also happened...

These models are not "Open" by any definition of the word. It is just freely redistributable. You can justify yourself in whatever way you want re a cowboy approach to copyright, but this doesn't change the fact that this is not open, and has almost none of the benefits of open, and therefore it is a huge abuse of the word "Open".

Ironically about the only thing that is copyrightable here is the sum of the training data (possibly) _AND_ the software used to build the model (most definitely). The model itself most likely isn't (databases are not copyrightable), which makes it even more pointless to abuse the word "open" for it. All the value is in the former two.

Re: Open source AI must win

#407
I think it's also important and heavily overlooked to develop and maintain open source "pro" level models. Those that are able to think for 80 minutes and yield heavy solutions.

I'm not an expert in LLMs so it's hard to understand how much are we lacking, is it just the compute and thinking strategies / parallel chains, or something specific architecturally. But I feel there's value there and I haven't seen anything like it available so far.

Re: Open source AI must win

#408
post #405
post #402

It won in my house/my business right from the start. (Well, open weights, at least — which is an uncomfortable nuance.) I have never understood the willingness to make the functioning of or development of a product so completely dependent on the secret sauce of one of two big unprofitable, inscrutable startups. It really defies sensible engineering principles to do that. So I was never going to do it. I'm exploring A…

I feel like "open source" in this context is, as you say, an uncomfortable nuance; the tooling (llama.cpp, et al) is open but useless without weights. The weights are extraordinarily expensive "capital" that is donated by big organizations who are all at war with each other. I don't know that it will ever be possible for, for instance, archive.org, to make truly open weights. And, other than archive.org, I can't imag…

Yes. The weights war is a much more aggressive war than the war of OSS donations.

In the OSS donations war (Visual Studio Code being a really fascinating example of it) you could see that the taps can't be turned off so easily. Whatever is donated can be built upon forever.

I think there will come a point, soon enough, where open weights models are capable enough that even if they stagnate, they can be augmented with tooling that essentially keeps them current. Maybe we are there now?

But the risk of the taps being turned off is not negligible.

My own feeling is that governments will ultimately ask consortia of universities to train open weights models and support them financially in doing so.

(And for what it is worth, I think diffusion text models are likely to trigger a hardware arms race that makes this possible)

In much the same way that they used to do that for the supercomputer race, which we just don't hear about right now!

Re: Open source AI must win

#409

I've been contemplating a decentralized model training system for some time using volunteer machines that we all contribute. But, it is astronomically difficult. The communication speeds are untenable. And, there is the issue of data poisoning from untrusted nodes. I've almost cracked that last issue with a self-healing checkpointed rollback system that doesn't have to throw out anything that follows the corrupt datu…

AI with blockchain. Maybe we can mix in IoT and VR for the ultimate in buzzword synergy.

Re: Open source AI must win

#410
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, it also complements the geohot idea behind the tinybox

What is that? I can’t seem to figure out what the use case is vs buying off the shelf? I think it’s a great project but the communication isn’t clear to me.

https://tinygrad.org/#tinybox

I'm not sure exactly why you would buy through them vs rolling your own if you could afford the equivalent hardware.

I'm a firm supporter of local inference though so good on them for doing something

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