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Open source AI must win

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381–390 of 538 posts

Re: Open source AI must win

#381
post #333

A question I've got which I've been wondering about, not sure if anyone else has been thinking about it, what actually made Fable so effective? From what I could tell from the very little time that I had to interact with it, it's instruction following seemed more consistent The other thing that comes to mind is a lot of people commented on how driven it was, so I'm wondering whether figuring out how to keep existing…

The big AI labs are also accumulating huge datasets of expert work in a wide range of fields, which is very expensive to re-create. It seems pretty plausible that this this gives them a big advantage that is compounded by their larger training runs and larger models.

This is a differentiator, definitely, however I'm honestly not sure if that materially improves intelligence vs one-shot capability

Re: Open source AI must win

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but have you seen what's happened to hardware improvements over the past 20 years? From the 1960s to the mid-2000s, every 10 years you'd have a big enough improvement in computing power that you could basically throw out the old computers and replace them with two new ones that were each massive improvements for the same cost (this varied, of course, from hyperbole to massive understatement). We achieved this by…

Moore's law isn't as relevant with parallel workloads. If you can keep building more lanes you don't have to worry about making faster cars.

Sure, but it doesn't lower the cost or increase the efficiency of the system

Re: Open source AI must win

#383
post #197

I've been contemplating a decentralized model training system for some time using volunteer machines that we all contribute. But, it is astronomically difficult. The communication speeds are untenable. And, there is the issue of data poisoning from untrusted nodes. I've almost cracked that last issue with a self-healing checkpointed rollback system that doesn't have to throw out anything that follows the corrupt datu…

As I replied to a child comment - this is a nice idea that just isn't tenable in reality. AI hardware isn't just hilariously faster than consumer GPUs, it's also hilariously more power-efficient and has hilariously better connectivity. Every one of these dimensions kills the idea. The far, FAR superior power efficiency means that even if you did harness every public GPU or GPU-like device on earth, you'd end up consu…

Could you put some numbers and examples behind the efficiency gap between data center and consumer-grade AI hardware? Did you include examples like the RTX Spark on the consumer side? I was always amazed at the low power consumption of unified memory style architectures. In absolute terms and even more so compared to consumer-grade GPUs. I'd be genuinely interested in a comparison with data-center-grade hardware.

Re: Open source AI must win

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be done by making a sparse MoE of thousands, or tens of thousands, of smaller experts in very niche domains? Maybe a tree-like structure of experts which can delegate from relatively general but inaccurate to extremely niche but accurate? Also these experts might be plug-and-play, easily swap out an inferior expert with a stronger one in the future without having to redo the whole pile?

That's not really how the experts in an MoE work. They activate on token probabilities and are activated on every token. You don't necessarily have a discrete math expert and a discrete physics expert. And if it were you would still need a router that is trained on all of those domains.

MoE models are typically designed for datacenter deployment, where per-token load-balancing is more important, but it's also possible to use a different training objective that encourages domain-specialization of experts: https://allenai.org/blog/emo But yes, this isn't really useful for distributed training as such because of the router.

Re: Open source AI must win

#385
post #377

I've been contemplating a decentralized model training system for some time using volunteer machines that we all contribute. But, it is astronomically difficult. The communication speeds are untenable. And, there is the issue of data poisoning from untrusted nodes. I've almost cracked that last issue with a self-healing checkpointed rollback system that doesn't have to throw out anything that follows the corrupt datu…

Maybe the training approaches taken to date are wrong for decentralized systems. Setup a virtual subnet you can trust and do training on that. Create a AI model island in a trusted/federated model system -- definitely slower than the typical 'one big model' approach, but scalable to world size modeling. Also, it wouldn't be able to use a transformer architecture. For inspiration, take a look at Google Maps and how it…

Other comments also hint at this idea, a distributed training solution is currently an open research problem. Solving it is not easy, yet. But 10 years ago what we have today for LLMs would have looked similarly impossible, so have hope, and apply yourself to the problem if you find it interesting!

Re: Open source AI must win

#386
Since it's not mentioned in the article, the distinction between open source and open weights is important. Open weights models are almost like a 'first shot is free' entry drug. Without at least the original training data your ability to meaningfully upgrade it is so limited that its utility will quickly fall behind the latest versions of continuously developed models. So much that it'll leave you craving for another release, or have you going back to the provider's API. Even simple things like moving the knowledge cutoff forward will noticeably improve the UX, and that's not to speak of more fundamental improvements like reasoning, quantization-aware training and all the goodness that's yet to come.

Sure, we can do research to bring improvements to open weights models, but it's the same thing: it's either open source or it won't benefit the general public nearly as much.

Re: Open source AI must win

#387

I've been contemplating a decentralized model training system for some time using volunteer machines that we all contribute. But, it is astronomically difficult. The communication speeds are untenable. And, there is the issue of data poisoning from untrusted nodes. I've almost cracked that last issue with a self-healing checkpointed rollback system that doesn't have to throw out anything that follows the corrupt datu…

There are some attempts at this problem, like Bittensor, Akash Network etc

Re: Open source AI must win

#388
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a perfect prompt for a rich HN discussion so while in general I agree with you, in this case the discussion is what matters.

This is almost always the case. Discussion quality went down during the last few years but HN is still _the_ place to attract people who really know what they are talking about.

I find that most arguments are endlessly rehashed. I would be like if most AI related discussion limited to maximum 2 / 3 most important news per day.

Re: Open source AI must win

#389
> If intelligence becomes something people can only rent from a few closed institutions, the public does not just lose software freedom. It loses operational freedom.

And people do not just lose operational freedom. They lose the freedom to think, much less act. To some extent, general intelligence has already been outsourced to a few companies. Phones and computers extend the human mind's capabilities, but most people don't have root on their phone. They don't know or control what software is running on it, or how the hardware is made. They don't control their phone, the phone controls them instead. The upstream problem is ownership of general computation, ownership of your own mind, aka self-ownership. This will become more obvious as computing devices become more personally integrated (desktop -> laptop -> smartphone -> smartglasses -> neural interface). Who owns the digital part of your mind? It's not really you at the moment.

Democracy, or any form of negotiation, can only exist among entities with similar capabilities. The gap must be very small. Orangutans may be smart enough to drive a golf cart, but there are no orangutan citizens in a human democracy. So you cannot run from this by being a luddite hermit in the mountains. When the world is full of digitally computing humans much smarter than you, you'll be at their mercy like monkeys are at the mercy of humans. We destroy their habitats and experiment on them as we please.

Now for the first time in history, organisms can increase their own information processing capability at will. We're in the middle of a speciation event where humanity splits into those who own the digital part of their mind vs those who don't, and there will be further splits based on how much compute you own. Though a future where no individual can fully own their mind is also possible.

By "own", I mean being able to command the entire technology stack. If we want sovereignty for the masses, then we must decentralize the entire technology stack for general computation. That means everything from electricity generation, to chip design and fabbing, to all layers of software from firmware to neural networks. All of it must be accessible to every individual. Everyone must be able to make a computer from scratch at home, or at least without leaving the city they live in. Anything less than that, and democratic society as we know it will continue to crumble.

The fundamental idea underlying all of this is: that which reproduces, survives.

At what level of organization can we reproduce?

The digitally computing human species cannot reproduce as individuals. We can only reproduce as a society, at least for now. You can't make a computer from scratch on your own, but you can make a brain from scratch with just one other person of the opposite sex. As the world we live in becomes more suitable for the digitally computing rather than the purely organic, the organic part of the digitally computing human becomes less likely to voluntarily reproduce. If the organic part were to survive without being disempowered in the future, then it's probably by moving the mechanisms for reproductive drive to the society level (via religion or authoritarian government incentivizing or mandating reproduction), or by ensuring that each and every individual has the means to make the digital part of their mind on their own just like how they can make the biological part on their own.

Re: Open source AI must win

#390
post #383
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I replied to a child comment - this is a nice idea that just isn't tenable in reality. AI hardware isn't just hilariously faster than consumer GPUs, it's also hilariously more power-efficient and has hilariously better connectivity. Every one of these dimensions kills the idea. The far, FAR superior power efficiency means that even if you did harness every public GPU or GPU-like device on earth, you'd end up consu…

Could you put some numbers and examples behind the efficiency gap between data center and consumer-grade AI hardware? Did you include examples like the RTX Spark on the consumer side? I was always amazed at the low power consumption of unified memory style architectures. In absolute terms and even more so compared to consumer-grade GPUs. I'd be genuinely interested in a comparison with data-center-grade hardware.

DGX Spark is effectively prosumer hardware, better than most consumer stuff but still not comparable to actual datacenter gear. You can't just look at TDP in isolation without also comparing performance.
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