Live data from Hacker News

Electric motors with no rare earths

renaultgroup.com

21–30 of 231 posts

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#21
post #4

BMW also makes rare-earths-free motors for their EVs and - at this very moment - theirs are far more advanced. They offer almost twice the power (up to 300kW vs 160kW) and are on a 800v architecture.

The cheapest EV model Renault sells is around €20K, the cheapest BMW EV is around €65K. It's safe to say the companies are not in the market bracket, no?

It's still good to know that SOTA is further, and we can expect the more advanced designs to seep into more affordable segments.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#22

Mentioned in another HN thread [0]: They're also used by Nissan [1], BMW [2], and Indian EVs [3]. European firms like ZF, Valeo, MAHLE, and Schaffler along with British firms like AEM have been working with their Indian JVs as well as Indian players like Sona Comstar and Sterling for a couple years now to integrate supply chains for mass-producing EESMs. EESMs as well as the larger OEM story played a role in helping…

Not sure why this was voted down, it was the most useful comment here.

does Nissan still use these motors, the car in the linked article has been discontinued, and then only real info I can find on their site about the leaf is about their ROCKIN' bose sound system/s

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#23
post #6

How soon to see rare-earth-free paired with CATL Sodium batteries? Seems a price war, range war is imminent.

Could be wrong, but AFAIK the CATL Sodium batteries haven't yet hit LFP pricing. You are unlikely to see a vehicle with sodium batteries until after that happens, and it needs to be significantly less than LFPs as you Na batteries have more weight per Wh. I believe they also have a shorter lifespan (but not NMC short). Edit correction, looks like CATL is promising 15000 cycles, which is much longer than LFPs which us…

Superior temperature range in cold weather as well IIRC.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#24
post #6

How soon to see rare-earth-free paired with CATL Sodium batteries? Seems a price war, range war is imminent.

Could be wrong, but AFAIK the CATL Sodium batteries haven't yet hit LFP pricing. You are unlikely to see a vehicle with sodium batteries until after that happens, and it needs to be significantly less than LFPs as you Na batteries have more weight per Wh. I believe they also have a shorter lifespan (but not NMC short). Edit correction, looks like CATL is promising 15000 cycles, which is much longer than LFPs which us…

The energy density of LFP batteries are also 30-50% higher than sodium based battery chemistries. Even if sodium battery prices drop, the lower energy density is a big disadvantage. My understanding is that sodium batteries are aimed at stationary use-cases, like battery buffers for fast charging.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#25
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be wrong, but AFAIK the CATL Sodium batteries haven't yet hit LFP pricing. You are unlikely to see a vehicle with sodium batteries until after that happens, and it needs to be significantly less than LFPs as you Na batteries have more weight per Wh. I believe they also have a shorter lifespan (but not NMC short). Edit correction, looks like CATL is promising 15000 cycles, which is much longer than LFPs which us…

One of the most interesting features of sodium batteries is that they still perform good in cold temperatures.

And high temperatures, too. Meaning they don't require cooling nor heating, basically matching the per kg capacity of ready modules with LFP while being significantly safer and less complex.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#26

Mentioned in another HN thread [0]: They're also used by Nissan [1], BMW [2], and Indian EVs [3]. European firms like ZF, Valeo, MAHLE, and Schaffler along with British firms like AEM have been working with their Indian JVs as well as Indian players like Sona Comstar and Sterling for a couple years now to integrate supply chains for mass-producing EESMs. EESMs as well as the larger OEM story played a role in helping…

what is a prsm? Do you mean pmsm?

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#27
post #6

How soon to see rare-earth-free paired with CATL Sodium batteries? Seems a price war, range war is imminent.

Could be wrong, but AFAIK the CATL Sodium batteries haven't yet hit LFP pricing. You are unlikely to see a vehicle with sodium batteries until after that happens, and it needs to be significantly less than LFPs as you Na batteries have more weight per Wh. I believe they also have a shorter lifespan (but not NMC short). Edit correction, looks like CATL is promising 15000 cycles, which is much longer than LFPs which us…

They're promising to start selling a Qiyuan A06 variant with Sodium batteries sometime this year... so if you went looking you could probably see one... or will be able to soon.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#28

Mentioned in another HN thread [0]: They're also used by Nissan [1], BMW [2], and Indian EVs [3]. European firms like ZF, Valeo, MAHLE, and Schaffler along with British firms like AEM have been working with their Indian JVs as well as Indian players like Sona Comstar and Sterling for a couple years now to integrate supply chains for mass-producing EESMs. EESMs as well as the larger OEM story played a role in helping…

European and Indian manufacturers/engineering are definitely not in the same category though.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#30
post #8

https://youtu.be/FHufjrP0xDI?is=xmFQrXGa1dBHM67I This is a helpful explanation of what this technology is and looks like. (Munro)

It was a dude with motors on a table with a flip board. No animations. No diagrams. When it got to the point about having one of each motor, and using the best, he then said that you use the permanent motor even when the other makes sense. Ok, well then why have the two different kinds of motors? No answer. Just handwaved. If you can't use the induction motor when its most efficient, because thats when the permanent motor is causing spin loss, why have the induction motor at all? No answer.

So. Analog presentation. Actual motors on a desk with a flip chart. No animations. No internal visualizations. One page had diagrams that would have been better super-imposed (or hey, animated). Then one page the begs questions with no answers given.

Post reply on HN