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Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

newscientist.com

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Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#201

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #120
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason Ukraine has not attacked Moscow with missiles is that this would force Russia to retaliate with nuclear missiles. There's a long discussion on this in sources I follow (full disclosure, I tend to listen to John Mearsheimer a lot although I don't believe everything he says) and the consensus is that the latest attacks in Russian land will have consequences. So I agree that it's not so simple but I a…

Russia been saying they will nuke everyone since before the war. They never do anything when meet with strength. Russians even didn’t use nukes when Russian land was under occupation for months. They just raised their fist in the air shaking it and said ”we will show you”.

But I don't think they were really "met with strength". If they had, then Moscow would really have been bombed and I don't mean by drones. I just don't think NATO is going to fight a war with Russia over Ukraine.

If Russia had really been "met with strength" the war would be over, or it would have spread much farther than Ukraine's borders. With respect to the Ukrainians, who have shown incredible bravery and smarts, I'm afraid they have been left to fend on their own, and I don't see that seriously changing.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#202

Post by somat »

kelipso wrote: post #197
somat wrote: post #165

That is not true. By my calculation the first human killed by drones was probably September 24, 1958 when planes were shot down by fully autonomous rocket powered kamikaze drones released over the taiwan strait. My point being A. we have been killing people with fully autonomous drones for a long time now. and B. why the name change? just because it uses a propeller or is in vertical helicopter form does it is not a…

You need to show at least some reference to that, or a name I can look up..

It is easy enough to search for what happened over the Taiwan strait in September 1958. But here is the best report I have found on the incident.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/documents/2051...

TLDR: page 46: the sidewinder missile(a fully autonomous rocket powered kamikaze drone to use modern sensationalist language) was used for the first time in combat.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#203

Post by machomaster »

expedition32 wrote: post #194
machomaster wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats of USA using human-guided drones to kill people. A civilian/military ratio and numbers was worse that 11.9. Heck, check the American drone war crime video Wikileaks published. The one that made the USA so angry that it decided to attack and destroy the journalists.

I am amused about how emotional people get about AI killing people. In my mind the idea that someone sitting at a screen chosing to blow up other humans is frankly far more terrifying. A computer is unlikely to go "colonel Kurtz".

Agree. That's why autopilots in airplanes have a much better track record than flesh pilots. And when the autopilot screws up, there is a clear path to improvement, to make sure that the situation will never repeat itself. With humans, people continue to make the same mistakes, no matter how many times it happened before (even for the same pilots).

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#204

Post by machomaster »

dieortin wrote: post #164
machomaster wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats of USA using human-guided drones to kill people. A civilian/military ratio and numbers was worse that 11.9. Heck, check the American drone war crime video Wikileaks published. The one that made the USA so angry that it decided to attack and destroy the journalists.

The USA tends to kill way more civilians than any other military in the world though, so I’m not sure it’s a good example.

Only the USA has enough war experience and drones for us to have high confidence stats on the performance of human drone operators (military vs. civilian targets) vs. AI.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#205

Post by dieortin »

machomaster wrote: post #204
dieortin wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA tends to kill way more civilians than any other military in the world though, so I’m not sure it’s a good example.

Only the USA has enough war experience and drones for us to have high confidence stats on the performance of human drone operators (military vs. civilian targets) vs. AI.

Ukraine and Russia have infinitely more experience with drone warfare than the US.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#206

Post by machomaster »

trhway wrote: post #169
machomaster wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of precision does matter when we are talking about trenches/bunkers and bombs often missing by many dozens and even hundreds of meters.

Unfortunately they don't miss by hundreds of meters. And Russia frequently uses 3000lb and 6000lb bombs. So missing a bunker a bit doesn't matter - it will still collapse. Here for example it is clearly visible that the bomb misses the building by about 20m https://t.me/RtrDonetsk/25282

https://t.me/milinfolive/100367 https://t.me/arrowsmap/9958

Plus all those bombs that fell in Russia, dozens of kilometers away from the target.

The precision does get better, but still look at the second pic:

https://t.me/milinfolive/150513?single

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#207

Post by dash2 »

inigyou wrote: post #198
dash2 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that the majority of inhabitants even of Mariupol have been killed, tortured or enslaved? If so, could you point me to a source for that? Wikipedia reports its population has dropped from about 425K to an estimated 120K, but reports an estimate that 200K people fled; they report a high-end estimate of 25K people killed during the 2022 siege itself.

What happened to 105K people even using your numbers? Why is the satellite imagery just huge piles of rubble?

It sounds like we agree that Russian war crimes were vast, but that even in Mariupol, a majority of inhabitants were not killed or enslaved.

I’m not sure why you are combative about this. Do you think any form of moderation or precision in language is surrender to the enemy?

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#208

Post by victorbjorklund »

postsantum wrote: post #125
victorbjorklund wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia been saying they will nuke everyone since before the war. They never do anything when meet with strength. Russians even didn’t use nukes when Russian land was under occupation for months. They just raised their fist in the air shaking it and said ”we will show you”.

>said ”we will show you” I didn't follow the news. How did it end?

They did nothing they didn’t do before. They shot some random missiles and drone and kill some civilians in an apartment house/hospital/etc. But it is nothing they wouldn’t do a normal weekday.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#209

Post by victorbjorklund »

nozzlegear wrote: post #170
victorbjorklund wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing but valid targets in those zones. Not different from sending a cruise missile on a military base killing everything there.

If we accept that the use of chemical weapons versus kinetic weapons is clearly different even though both were used on military targets, we should also consider whether a cruise missile and an autonomous drone are clearly different. Just because the target has a Russian uniform on doesn't mean it's okay to kill them in whatever way we can dream up.

That’s why we have said it is OK to blow up soldiers but not gas them. Ukraine has followed the international laws and are legally blowing up them. Nothing different from shooting a tomahawk on them.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#210

Post by sebastiennight »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #119
sebastiennight wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're fighting for their country's existence. I would use every weapon in my disposal; and I'm a pacifist who hates violence. I'm not sure it's accurate to define yourself as a pacifist if you believe safeguarding the concept of a nation-state is more important than human life, ethics, or the downstream effects of using "every weapon at your disposal". I don't think you realize the creativity and variety we human…

I bet you think it was wrong to fight against Hitler.

You're losing your bet. Also, you might be losing the argument by taking this conversation past the Godwin point.

But, to answer your specific question, no, I do not think it is "wrong" (which is a moral judgment) to fight against people who want to kill others.

This is a complex argument because:

1. I, due to my ancestry, would have been in the outgroup that pretty much any genocidal maniac would be targeting (including that one)

2. I would have been doing my best, back when political means were still on the table, to fight against the idea that letting the bully have his way was the most expedient manner. The whole decade would have gone quite differently if Germany had not been allowed to freely build up the means to invade neighbors willy-nilly.

3. If I had lived in Germany, eastern France, etc. would have been gone with my family way before the onslaught started. If we're letting this looming thing happen, you can have the land and my shopfront. I'm resourceful enough to set up shop elsewhere.

4. Failing (2) and (3), I'd be fighting. But thinking that fighting is the first resort is what allows you to be manipulated by a handful of rich old men who'll send you to the trenches to die.

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