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Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

mayrhofer.eu.org

131–140 of 292 posts

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#131
post #24

>“Don’t Be Evil” wasn’t just a slogan (...) —it was a north star for teams making hard calls I've developed an involuntary, muscle-level reflex that forces me to close the tab immediately when I read these "not just X -- it was Y" LLMisms. I realize the author might be human and am sorry if that's the case, but I can't help it.

Google removed "Don't be evil" from its Code of Conduct in May 2018. Shocking that it took 8 years for the author to make their ethical stand -- during which time Google stock went up 600%...

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#132
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think there's a lot more political will now than there was a decade ago for explicitly repealing the sections of American civil rights law that define what a "hostile workplace" is, in order to make sure that something like Damore's memo would not count. Certainly, this is something I think about when evaluating political candidates.

What are the major historical examples where protecting employees from a "hostile workplace" is important? Racism? Misogyny? Homophobia? Do protection from these things look expendable to you?

I'm sure either of us could quickly find a bunch of people who would like to one or several of those acceptable again, yet us finding that such people exist would not tell us a damned thing about whether dismantling those protections is a good idea. Or supposing it does, then one might even make the case that those people existing is an excellent reason for having such a law in the first place.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#133

[flagged]

You really haven't ever encountered someone who believed in anything, have you?

I actually did this. And that's why I feel confident calling out people like the guy in the article who enjoyed the upside and then do this performative cringe.

I quit my job working for oil and gas companies, and taught myself how to code and then worked at a company that actually made non-asshole software that went on to IPO so things worked out.

I didn't choose to help oil and gas companies, the company I worked for had them as customers so the work I did helped oil and gas. I chose to give up the money and do something else.

So I don't give a fuck about downvotes. I actually lived it, and I don't give a fuck anymore either to call people out.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#134

Personally, I don't get why people blindly reject any collaboration with the military. I understand that they are pacifists, but I still don't get it. When I look at history, I see so many tragedies caused by being weak. Both Germany and the Soviet Union were able to invade Poland, for instance, and the Katyn massacre is a national scar. And who wouldn't want to defeat invaders like Genghis Khan? Have you ever heard…

I have thought about this a lot, and concluded that the peace we have today largely stems from all major powers having nuclear weapons, and leadership in each understanding that avoiding nuclear war is the utmost priority. All foreign policy choices are aligned to prevent military confrontation and avoid nuclear war. Thus there is an overemphasis to resolve disputes through diplomacy. But the plebeians do not understand this, they assume the peace today backed by nuclear weapons is genuine and permanent, they don't consider the nuclear weapons hidden underground, and advocate for policies like pacifism that do not reflect reality.

This quote sums up the current situation:

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#135
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wasn't unhinged, he somewhat clumsily posted evolutionary biology literature fragments on a channel where it would offend parts of the readers. In response to a "let a thousand flowers bloom and speak your mind" request from Google management snakes. The problem is that some tech people take these requests seriously. Google of course has identified itself as Trump sycophants and hypocrites by now. Maybe they shoul…

No he was kind of unhinged. That wasn't the first weird thing he did. Should've been fired.

By all means, explain what else he did. I've seen this claim made repeatedly on hacker news, but conspicuously noone seems willing to o substantiate those claims.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#136
post #13

[flagged]

Considering they rolled back DEI along with everyone else after Trump's second victory, it's difficult to view those previous "values" as anything other than cynical kissing-up to the previous holders of power.

They were not cynical kissing up to previous holders of power, they were desperate attempts to cover their asses against EEOC lawsuits. And they didn't end because of Trump's second victory, they ended because the Supreme Court defanged EEOC (and half the rest of the federal regulatory agencies).

The actual reason for the "corporate DEI" in tech was that since Griggs v. Duke Power Co. (1971), EEOC could sue companies that had lower minority proportion than population norm for discrimination, and could could prove the discrimination in court using nothing but the racial makeup of the employees, and some policy at the company that could in theory have disparate impact. And under their standards, literally any policy has disparate impact.

This hit other sectors first, to which they responded by hiring more minorities. But tech had the problem that schools were consistently producing fewer minority engineering grads than the population proportion, and in a world where approximately every engineer got employed, some US tech companies would have to have lower minority representation than the population no matter what they did. And because the disparity between engineering grads and racial population proportion was so high, in fact most large companies would fail to meet the necessary minority proportions.

But EEOC would not instantly file suit against every offender, instead they would file ~40 such suits per year, targeting large companies that they considered particularly bad. And so companies that felt they might get hit soon started doing DEI programs, at first to attract more minority engineers (from other companies in the same sector, which would then fall under the limit, making it zero-sum), but then they realized that the EEOC didn't really sue the companies that were the loudest at touting their DEI credentials, and it all became extremely performative, no longer trying to attract minority talent but to be the loudest company talking about the subject. Iterate over that for a few decades and it got really weird.

It ended because Trump named 3 SC justices on his first term, and in a few important cases between 2023 and today, the new SC tore the whole thing down, and suing a company for disparate impact is now considered unconstitutional.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#137
post #113

[flagged]

I think if Damore had limited his criticism to the corporate DEI (which I found to be a bit heavy-handed and prone to critical theory groupthink) in a short doc, he probably would have been a bit more successful (in helping Google rein back its DEI training). One rarely stated thing I learned over time working there is that managers read eng-misc and will prevent you from transferring to their team if they didn't lik…

[deleted]

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#138
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hate the James Damore discussion because it's like the least interesting part. You have a company dealing with internal political mayhem trying to find the least disruptive, not only internally but now externally because this shit has leaked. It's a workplace, and youre trying to keep people effective and working. And some googlers got too comfortable with what they were sharing on a work machine, not just t…

100% agree. The James Damore flag was immediately taken up by major figures in transphobia (like Singal, Soh, etc) and pro-fascism campaigners (like Molyneux), both of which are political programs are absolutely incompatible with maintaining a non-hostile workplace environment for employees. (and not incidentally, both of which a premised on discredited bioessentialist pseudoscience) I find it is a deeply cynical mov…

What is the "bioessentialist pseudoscience" you're referring to?

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you're responding to incorrect summaries? He was not intolerant of woman in the workplace. His memo was specifically in support of women in the workplace. https://web.archive.org/web/20170813080340/https://www.theat...

No, I read the memo. What I was not doing is taking him at his word that he "values diversity and inclusion", I was reading his actual words and the sexist dogwhistles. Stating acceptance does not absolve other intolerance. We must also look at the effect of his memo, which was to alienate many, and which caused a backlash that led to his firing. The company did not make a big deal of it just to fire him, it was indi…

"dog whistles" are, more often than not, a thinly veiled way of putting words in other people's mouthes.

Damore's thesis amounted to "maybe women are 20% of software developers not because they're being discriminated against, but because they're exercising their own agency and choosing other fields."

Given that about 20% of CS grads are women, it seems like a pretty reasonable stance.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, Big Tech's billboard to "bring your best self" was just to get super eager people with great skills into their ranks to help accelerate business. Once you're on the inside, it's quite clear that's a farce and in fact, you should keep your mouth shut and your head down. Alas.

Had a coworker at a bank that was trying to emulate Tech (Capital One - all in on AWS and PIPs) who bought into it. Ended up PIPed and then is doing a PhD in a completely unrelated field. We had a mental health slack channel, and a racial politics one that rehashed Israel/Palestine daily.

>and a racial politics one

We had one of those. Not slack, self hosted internal stuff. Some "senior by tenure but not title" people decided the only thing that could come of it was people running their mouths to everyone's detriment and start trolling it until nobody took it seriously and then it was quietly "collateral damage" in a migration that was also arranged.

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