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macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

phoronix.com

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Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#71

Post by GeekyBear »

amiga386 wrote: post #49
GeekyBear wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> M series macs are weird More weird than the opaque Management Engines on Intel or AMD chips that can take full control of your system at any time that you have no control over? > Can't help but to think the goal of this wasn't to actually allow third-party OSes Apple has explicitly stated that allowing third party OSes is exactly the purpose of the new bootloader.

Yes, more weird than that. x86 PCs have fairly standardised boot and autoconfiguration (UEFI and ACPI). ARM based systems, including the Apple M series, don't. You just have to know what's there (device trees), and Apple isn't going to tell you. Hence why it's difficult to make another OS run on it, because you first need to find out what hardware's even there, and how to talk to it. It's initialised by Apple before…

Asahi Linux already does use an open source UEFI implementation (U-Boot) to boot Linux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_U-Boot

The Asahi installer will also allow you to install UEFI alone, in case you want to use UEFI to install some other OS.

The hardware management engines in modern x86 chips are backdoors running at a higher privilege level than the installed OS's kernel.

It's hard to see them as anything else.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#72

Post by spockz »

bigyabai wrote: post #64
nomel wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it just feels like a poorly-supported Linux distro. That's because it's Unix, not Linux.

macOS, as shipped, is only Unix-like. Even when configured to pass UNIX certification, it doesn't qualify without the temporary waivers: if you want your installation of macOS 15.0 to pass the UNIX® 03 certification test suites, you need to disable System Integrity Protection, enable the root account, enable core file generation, disable timeout coalescing, mount any APFS partitions with the strictatime option, forma…

I get most of this, but spotlight doesn’t need to be disabled altogether. That is a requirement for the verification, not the actually running as unix.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#73

Post by jayd16 »

theshrike79 wrote: post #15
Teever wrote: post #6

I wish the EU would regulate this kind of stuff. A consumer shouldn't be restricted from installing their own OS on a device that they bought, be it a smartphone, tablet, laptop, desktop, or server. A company the size of Apple should also be required to release proper documentation that enables the porting of operating systems to these kinds of devices. The reverse engineering work that the Asahi team did is remarkab…

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

> Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple

Lifetime Xboxes sold: ~200 Million

Lifetime iPhones sold: 3 Billion

Why is it weird?

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#75

Post by JoeAltmaier »

jayd16 wrote: post #73
theshrike79 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

> Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple Lifetime Xboxes sold: ~200 Million Lifetime iPhones sold: 3 Billion Why is it weird?

Well, currently 6 Billion active Android phones exist. Not lifetime total: current active. So there's that.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#76

Post by Gander5739 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #75
jayd16 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple Lifetime Xboxes sold: ~200 Million Lifetime iPhones sold: 3 Billion Why is it weird?

Well, currently 6 Billion active Android phones exist. Not lifetime total: current active. So there's that.

Android phones can come with the bootloader unlocked, although many vendors do lock them, particularly in the US.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#77

Post by wpm »

CjHuber wrote: post #33
wpm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the happy path disappears, the not-so-happy path will be taken to allow for booting custom kernels, one that will likely rely on turning the some or a lot of the RE energy towards breaking the Secure Enclave, the bootloader, and so on. Apple practically laid the red carpet out to avoid people trying to crack the parts of the hardware/software chain-of-trust they would really rather not have cracked. A similar stra…

So isn't that just purely security by obscurity then? Would they not rather have someone publicly break it instead of selling a zero day?

Nothing is perfectly secure on its own. No system designed or checked by humans ever will be. After all, the Xbox One was indeed pwned, relatively recently. However, because the juice wasn't worth the squeeze for so long, it got pwned years after it was a relevant, money making console.

Novel jailbreaks for ancient iPhones are not worth much. But attention on current, brand new devices means increasing the danger that a mistake gets found, which increases the odds that that mistake is found by someone who wants to sell it for the most money. Also, from Apple's perspective a zero-day in the bootloader on macOS also means a zero-day in the bootloader in all of the billions of iOS devices out there too. They do not want to give anyone anymore reason than what already exists to try and pwn LLB or iBoot. Given a happy path, all of that hacker energy for "put Linux on my M1 Macbook" is put towards device drivers and support, rather than "how the hell do we get an alternative kernel booting on this thing".

Fewer bullets pinging off the armor. Fewer cracks in the fuselage forming. Fewer knives to dodge. All of it means Apple's boot process for their current devices are less likely to be pwned before they turn into e-waste (whenever that is, not making a comment on Apple's perhaps accelerated or otherwise practices in obsolescence).

Just like a jetliner will eventually succumb to entropy and become dangerous to fly, so too will a lot of "secure" software. You only need to actively maintain a jetliner while it is flying passengers or cargo. Once it is retired, it can rot, people can break into the husk of it at the junkyard and fornicate and smoke crack and smash windows and steal parts of the fuselage. At that point, who cares?

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#78

Post by Rohansi »

nomel wrote: post #54
Rohansi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are actually not commodity hardware. The PlayStation and Xbox CPU/GPU is custom built for the console. Try finding a CPU that can use GDDR RAM!

Wouldn't that be the same argument for Apple hardware?

Sure, but where do you draw the line? Many PCs ship with some custom hardware but are not locked down. The MacBook Neo is probably not locked down but uses the same SoC as the iPhone 16 Pro which is locked down.

IMO it's pretty arbitrary. I wouldn't expect to run software on an appliance, even if the underlying hardware is commodity. And an appliance is something that performs a specific task (fridge, car, etc.). There are gray area cases though when an appliance does more than its basic function (smart fridge, car infotainment).

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#79

Post by tcmart14 »

gavinsyancey wrote: post #74
prmoustache wrote: post #68

Do you need to keep a MacOs installation when you install Asahi?

I believe it's not strictly necessary, but the project recommends that you do.

To add on. If I remember correctly, its been awhile keeping track of it, they recommend you do because macOS is how you will get firmware updates as there are not any or many mechanisms to update firmware on Apple Silicon devices from Linux.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#80

Post by 13415 »

happyopossum wrote: post #46
officeplant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of us would prefer MS/Apple to never be within touching range of our hardware.

Then maybe a "lot of" you should not be buying Apple hardware?

Or Apple could just fix these issues.
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