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macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

phoronix.com

31–40 of 161 posts

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#31
post #2

Sadly both main ARM platforms (Apple silicon and Qualcomm) are a mine field for Linux

Most computers have been like that, FOSS got lucky that IBM failed to secure the PC for themselves, thus the PC clones.

When folks say Intel and AMD are done, and we should all be on ARM, or RISC-V, beware of what to wish for.

Yes there are device trees now, however someone has to keep them up to date, and that is only part of what makes a motherboard.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#32
post #2

Sadly both main ARM platforms (Apple silicon and Qualcomm) are a mine field for Linux

i run linux on both in arch and fedora versions with zero problems, by using the hypervisor framework of macos and wsl2 (wrapper for hyperv). do you need a more direct than hypervisor access to some hardware?

A lot of us would prefer MS/Apple to never be within touching range of our hardware.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#33
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(removed)

If the happy path disappears, the not-so-happy path will be taken to allow for booting custom kernels, one that will likely rely on turning the some or a lot of the RE energy towards breaking the Secure Enclave, the bootloader, and so on. Apple practically laid the red carpet out to avoid people trying to crack the parts of the hardware/software chain-of-trust they would really rather not have cracked. A similar stra…

So isn't that just purely security by obscurity then? Would they not rather have someone publicly break it instead of selling a zero day?

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#34
post #26
post #6

I wish the EU would regulate this kind of stuff. A consumer shouldn't be restricted from installing their own OS on a device that they bought, be it a smartphone, tablet, laptop, desktop, or server. A company the size of Apple should also be required to release proper documentation that enables the porting of operating systems to these kinds of devices. The reverse engineering work that the Asahi team did is remarkab…

I don't think it's unreasonable for a device manufacturer to tightly couple it to the software they design to run on it.

That might be reasonable for a general purpose computer if we were talking about something like a Parallel Inference Machine running KL1 software on a KL0 kernel. But I think conflating Apple's products with that level of foundational engineering is highly disingenuous. They're not exactly trundling into the dark woods of exotic hardware and reinventing the bridge between human and computer. It's an ARM computer running a Unix clone. Apple's engineers aren't mapping every codepath and counting every micro-op, Darwin contains extensive amounts of third-party code.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#35

It seems like this is a bug, apple went through the trouble to allow something like asahi to be possible in the first place. I doubt they're purposely trying to break it.

Apple designed a bootloader for Apple Silicon Macs that allows you to run an unsigned OS without degrading security when you boot into MacOS. This wasn't an accident. Macs have always allowed you to run another OS. iDevices have always had a locked bootloader. People shouldn't confuse the two.

M series macs are weird tho, yes the bootloader allows it but absolutely no documentation on the hardware, drivers etc. Can't help but to think the goal of this wasn't to actually allow third-party OSes, but for development purposes(and ye they could hide the feature behind apple account with paid dev license) or anti-anti-trust measures à-la Google with Firefox: in front of a jury of normal people they can simply say "look there's these nerds making Asahi" the same way "look we're not a monopoly Firefox has .2% market share".

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i run linux on both in arch and fedora versions with zero problems, by using the hypervisor framework of macos and wsl2 (wrapper for hyperv). do you need a more direct than hypervisor access to some hardware?

A lot of us would prefer MS/Apple to never be within touching range of our hardware.

On the other hand, your “us” is not very big compared to your “not us.” I like Linux as a server OS (and would pick it over Windows or MacOS for that any day of the week that ends in y), but as a desktop OS it’s just more work than I care to exert (in fact, Windows also exceeds my tolerance for fiddliness in a desktop OS). My general preference is for “you don’t have to” over “you can” as much as possible which is the exact opposite of the Linux desktop experience.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#37

It seems like this is a bug, apple went through the trouble to allow something like asahi to be possible in the first place. I doubt they're purposely trying to break it.

Such bugs have happened and been reported before. Asahi exercises "raw boot" facilities that just don't get all that much attention in any other context.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#38

It seems like this is a bug, apple went through the trouble to allow something like asahi to be possible in the first place. I doubt they're purposely trying to break it.

Apple designed a bootloader for Apple Silicon Macs that allows you to run an unsigned OS without degrading security when you boot into MacOS. This wasn't an accident. Macs have always allowed you to run another OS. iDevices have always had a locked bootloader. People shouldn't confuse the two.

If they allowed something similar on iphones, I'd switch to an iPhone the day an alternate os worked well enough for daily use.

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#39
post #2

Sadly both main ARM platforms (Apple silicon and Qualcomm) are a mine field for Linux

what about the ones from CIX like the orangepi or their framework mainboard? (though I agree, I miss UEFI for all its faults)

You do actually get UEFI on a few of these, though personally I've always fared better with U-Boot. (Sooner or later, I always run into something that is a simple edit in the device tree or uEnv, but UEFI doesn't expose.)

Re: macOS 27 Beta breaks the ability to boot Asahi Linux

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, the fight should be against PlayStation and Xbox. They’re 100% commodity hardware and fully locked down from any user freedom. Weirdly everyone focuses on Apple with all their might instead of gaming consoles.

Because gaming consoles are for a very specific purpose (and sold as such – the ruling against Sony for blocking Linux on the PS3 only happened because they advertised Linux compatibility) and Macs are general purpose computers

Macs are specialized in running macOS and its app ecosystem and integrating with other Apple devices. Apple don't advertise Linux compatibility.
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