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Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

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Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on that point. It seems to me that people who read Blindsight and get all existential are not thinking things through all the way. Blindsight poses the question, in essence, "What if consciousness is a competitive dis advantage, in which case non-consciousness would be Better™?" I can't make a conclusive case one way or the other w/r/t the premise—it may perhaps be the case that consciousness is a co…

How do you know that values and judgements have anything to do with being conscious? A machine can act like it has values and judgements and we wouldn't attribute any consciousness to it. Or if you've seen a dog tear up a garbage can every time it's owner leaves, I wonder if you're watching an expression of dog values. Is the dog conscious?

> How do you know that values and judgements have anything to do with being conscious?

The terms "value" and "judgement" have a broad semantic range. I mean to use them here in a sense that presupposes an exercise of subjective preference.

Machines, amoebas, programs, etc. can make choices, yes, and they can weigh alternatives, sometimes by assigning scores (aka "values") to differing outcomes. When I say that "Making value judgements is something that, by definition, conscious beings do and that non-conscious beings do not do," I'm trying to establish a narrower, more restricted definition than the broadest possible meaning of "value" or "judge."

So it's not that I "know" that values and judgements have anything to do with being conscious; I'm using these terms in such a way that by definition they do, because that's the set of things I want to talk about. The question then is not whether I'm right or wrong yet, but rather once we restrict the set of all things that could be called a "value" or a "judgement" to only the ones that I'm trying to make qualified assertions about, whether that set is empty (in which case everything I'm saying still evaluates to True, but vacuously and therefore uselessly so!).

I'm arguing this way because I think that narrower set a) exists and b) is relevant to the argument I'm making.

> Is the dog conscious?

I think dogs are unquestionably sentient (i.e. they are able to detect and respond to outside stimuli), and seem to display, in some minimal degree, at least an approximation of sapience (i.e. they are able to understand themselves and the world around them; hold and express preferences; form relationships and make decisions based on them).

I don't have a way to test whether a dog is conscious or not, and the dog has no means of trying to persuade me one way or the other; so I have to remain frustratingly agnostic on that point (frustrating to myself as much as I'm sure to you).

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#42

Watts is truly remarkable. I also recommend the Sunflowers series, just a brilliant conceit w.r.t humans in deep time plus a sound understanding of dealing with ASI. Wikipedia has it down as: The chronological order within the Sunflower universe is: "Hotshot", The Freeze-Frame Revolution, "Giants", "Hitchhiker", "Strategic Retreat", "Remora", "Outtake", "The Island". Just realizing I didnt see that list before I ther…

Chimp is very much not ASI, by design. Humans have ASI but the risk of value drift was too great so they downgraded him to 4.8

Chimp isn't, but at the end of freeze frame Sunday addresses one who she thinks is. [Not sure if that was the original intent in this thread, though]

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#43
post #6

No one has ever made me feel horror and despair like Peter Watts. His books stare directly into the abyss. I think it's what makes the hope you feel at the end seem earned. If you haven't read his work but you spend time thinking about HCI, you should.

I haven't read anything from Peter Watts, but I have read Cormac McCarthy and what you're describing sounds like that.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#46
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite enjoyed Blindsight, but that was not my takeaway at all :P How do you see people differently after reading it?

Hard to pin into words! We're unconscious of how unconscious we are?, and it's good to… what's the term, suffer gladly and give gladly? To own one's unconsciousness and raise it, and expect and see others' unconscious going about major things in life - to see it coldly as well as warmly. I find this is more accurate and safer than assuming consciousness in everyone, and it also reveals so clearly people who do cast t…

thanks for finding these words! i find myself getting less "nice feelings" of any depth on the internet lately (perhaps I am complicit), but your words are a breath of fresh air :)

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#47

I should read his long form stuff, I don't do anywhere near enough long form reading these days. I read "Malak" in Engineering Infinity years ago and it's very good indeed.

Years ago I read the entirety of Starfish on the gloriously Geocities-ass website linked here, and I highly recommend it. Even as someone who has a hard time keeping focus, it sucked me in.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#48
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite enjoyed Blindsight, but that was not my takeaway at all :P How do you see people differently after reading it?

Hard to pin into words! We're unconscious of how unconscious we are?, and it's good to… what's the term, suffer gladly and give gladly? To own one's unconsciousness and raise it, and expect and see others' unconscious going about major things in life - to see it coldly as well as warmly. I find this is more accurate and safer than assuming consciousness in everyone, and it also reveals so clearly people who do cast t…

Thank you for this! I have read Blindsight but I have long wondered why everyone thought it was so revolutionary. I kept thinking I was missing something. And I think this is it! In that I already thought/knew that everyone is basically sleepwalking through life and are not really conscious of what's going on.

I came to my conclusions on this mostly through my own studies on Illusions and other studies on consciousness. Knowing basic facts of how we see, and all the ways that our sight, touch and hearing really, fail us. Seeing the studies of how people who have their hemispheres separated can have parts of their body act independently of each other really blew my mind when I first learned about it.

Too many people believe that they themselves are sitting in a box and looking out through windows when really we're in a dark room reading a bunch of instruments and guessing what's out there. Plato's Cave is real and we are, all of us, already inside it.

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#49
post #39

Watts is truly remarkable. I also recommend the Sunflowers series, just a brilliant conceit w.r.t humans in deep time plus a sound understanding of dealing with ASI. Wikipedia has it down as: The chronological order within the Sunflower universe is: "Hotshot", The Freeze-Frame Revolution, "Giants", "Hitchhiker", "Strategic Retreat", "Remora", "Outtake", "The Island". Just realizing I didnt see that list before I ther…

ASI = Artificial Super Intelligence? I read Freeze Frame Revolution and drew blank seeing that acronym.

ASI = Artificial Sentient Intelligence

Re: Starfish by Peter Watts (1999)

#50

Blindsight and Echopraxis are two of my favorite novels. Hope he writes a third one in that series. Both really ahead of their time.

According to his blog, Peter Watts is currently writing the 3rd book of the Firefall Series. It'll be titled "Omniscience", no release date has been set yet.
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