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Who's the smartest corvid?

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Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#61

Post by virgildotcodes »

bruckie wrote: post #18
prerok wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading an article in National Geographic of how crow's brains are much more interconnected than is the norm in mammals, i.e. IIRC they have a higher density of synapses between neurons. From that article, it seems that the usual brain weight vs. body weight to determine intelligence, which seems can be used to approximate intelligence in different species of mammals, cannot be used for birds (or at least…

I wonder what the energy/evolutionary cost of densely-connected brains is. If it's advantageous, why are crows exceptional?

In terms of why bird brains would be exceptionally efficient for their volume (and I assume by extension, mass), would be that weight is at a premium for them.

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#62

Post by [deleted] »

wavemode wrote: post #42
tejohnso wrote: post #6

Chasing a bird of lesser intelligence so that it slams into an office building window seems especially cruel.

A lot of crow hunting stories feel cruel to read about, though I wonder why that is. There is something about intelligence that seems to carry a degree of... moral responsibility, somehow? Though in reality it's just an animal eating another animal, as ever.

[deleted]

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#64

Post by jamiek88 »

kibwen wrote: post #58
ifwinterco wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also do this to lambs, they're smart but evil

> smart but evil Sadly I have yet to see evidence that something can be smart without being evil.

I glanced at this and moved on but then my brain did a kind of record scratch on this comment.

Great question does intelligence require selfishness / evil?

I’m gonna think about this a bit, but my knee jerk was to (violently) disagree with this but I don’t know why.

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#66

Post by wrboyce »

JohnMakin wrote: post #36
prerok wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading an article in National Geographic of how crow's brains are much more interconnected than is the norm in mammals, i.e. IIRC they have a higher density of synapses between neurons. From that article, it seems that the usual brain weight vs. body weight to determine intelligence, which seems can be used to approximate intelligence in different species of mammals, cannot be used for birds (or at least…

I've read there's also a social aspect - crows are extremely social creatures, as are humans, and other highly intelligent animals like whales. That does seem to be a common denominator. Regarding that, I'm reminded of another story - on my daily walk near work, there was a dead crow on the pavement. 5 or so crows were standing all around it, doing nothing really. Even me passing close by did not trigger them to fly…

Corvids have been known to investigate deaths, truly fascinating creatures!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00033...

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#67

Post by Animats »

prerok wrote: post #12
JohnMakin wrote: post #3

One of the craziest behaviors I have seen was from a murder of American crows in a big city area sidewalk I walk down frequently - occasionally, I have observed homeless and vagrants throwing stuff at them, because sometimes they sleep under the powerlines where the crows like to perch and I think the crows defecate on them or something. It's well known they can carry grudges, but one day, as I was walking down the s…

I remember reading an article in National Geographic of how crow's brains are much more interconnected than is the norm in mammals, i.e. IIRC they have a higher density of synapses between neurons. From that article, it seems that the usual brain weight vs. body weight to determine intelligence, which seems can be used to approximate intelligence in different species of mammals, cannot be used for birds (or at least…

The brains of corvids are not closely related to mammalian brains. All the mammals have roughly the same brain, but corvids have a different architecture.[1]

Intelligence seems to have evolved three times on this planet - mammals, corvids, and octopuses. Octopuses have a distributed system rather than one central brain. They all have neurons, but the higher level architecture differs drastically.

Knowing that several different architectures can work is important for AI. There's apparently more than one way to do it.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S23521...

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#68

Post by bmurphy1976 »

Animats wrote: post #67
prerok wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading an article in National Geographic of how crow's brains are much more interconnected than is the norm in mammals, i.e. IIRC they have a higher density of synapses between neurons. From that article, it seems that the usual brain weight vs. body weight to determine intelligence, which seems can be used to approximate intelligence in different species of mammals, cannot be used for birds (or at least…

The brains of corvids are not closely related to mammalian brains. All the mammals have roughly the same brain, but corvids have a different architecture.[1] Intelligence seems to have evolved three times on this planet - mammals, corvids, and octopuses. Octopuses have a distributed system rather than one central brain. They all have neurons, but the higher level architecture differs drastically. Knowing that several…

Where do parrots fall in this grouping? They're not corvids. There must have been a pre-corvid ancestor.

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#69

Post by jancsika »

jamiek88 wrote: post #64
kibwen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> smart but evil Sadly I have yet to see evidence that something can be smart without being evil.

I glanced at this and moved on but then my brain did a kind of record scratch on this comment. Great question does intelligence require selfishness / evil? I’m gonna think about this a bit, but my knee jerk was to (violently) disagree with this but I don’t know why.

> Great question does intelligence require selfishness / evil?

No.

E.g., a bunch of chimps who come upon food will probably become aggressive, whereas a bunch of bonobos will probably get frisky with each other.

They are closely related primates, and their level of intelligence is at least comparable. So it's quite unlikely that the chimps higher level of social aggression is a hard dependency of their level of intelligence.

Re: Who's the smartest corvid?

#70

Post by bee_rider »

wavemode wrote: post #42
tejohnso wrote: post #6

Chasing a bird of lesser intelligence so that it slams into an office building window seems especially cruel.

A lot of crow hunting stories feel cruel to read about, though I wonder why that is. There is something about intelligence that seems to carry a degree of... moral responsibility, somehow? Though in reality it's just an animal eating another animal, as ever.

Maybe something like this: Most animals hunt in a way that minimizes their odds of getting hurt, to the best of their ability. Crows are pretty smart, and not very strong in the grand scheme of things. So they engage in tactics that look like cruel manipulative pranks; causing the prey to somehow kill itself or get killed by something stronger.

In the end, I think a gazelle doesn’t look up at the lion that killed it by outrunning it and the snapping its neck and say “Ah well, got me fair and square!”

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