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What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

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Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#51
Related:

What is it like to be a bat? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45118592 - Sept 2025 (294 comments)

What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35771587 - May 2023 (117 comments)

What Is It Like to Be a Bat? (1974) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13998867 - March 2017 (95 comments)

Bonus:

A browser game inspired by Thomas Nagle's Essay “What is it like to be a bat?” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8622829 - Nov 2014 (3 comments)

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#53
post #37
post #31

I read this article since it was referred to often in philosophy of mind, including by Daniel Dennett in "Consciousness Explained". Yet... while I expected some deeper dive into Umwelts, I got (in my experience) a tautology around the word "be". Which, IMHO, should be tabooed in all serious philosophical discussion, as "be" is the mother of word-lockpicks. Vide E-Prime, English without "be", https://en.wikipedia.org/…

Wanted to talk about it with Claude Fable 5... and it flagged the conversation ( https://x.com/pmigdal/status/2064837039552409763 ). Sure, cybersecurity and biology are dangerous topics. Turns out, so is philosophy of mind.

Bats

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#54

I'm pretty sure we could study a bat's brain, if it hasn't already been done, and get a good idea of what echolocation would feel like. Fundamentally echolocation is a bit like vision in that the bat can direct it's echolocation sense in whatever direction it likes, and a bit like peripheral vision it can also control the acuity of this sense by how fast it sends out chirps - varying from 5-20 per second when scannin…

This misses the point of the discussion. Yes, we can understand what it is like to be a human with echolocation. However, we can't understand what it is like to be a bat.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#55
post #54

I'm pretty sure we could study a bat's brain, if it hasn't already been done, and get a good idea of what echolocation would feel like. Fundamentally echolocation is a bit like vision in that the bat can direct it's echolocation sense in whatever direction it likes, and a bit like peripheral vision it can also control the acuity of this sense by how fast it sends out chirps - varying from 5-20 per second when scannin…

This misses the point of the discussion. Yes, we can understand what it is like to be a human with echolocation. However, we can't understand what it is like to be a bat .

[dead]

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will know the difference. That's enough for me.

How will you know the difference unless you are a bat? You cannot.

I can. You don't have access to my subjective experience to be able to claim I don't.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#57
post #37
post #31

I read this article since it was referred to often in philosophy of mind, including by Daniel Dennett in "Consciousness Explained". Yet... while I expected some deeper dive into Umwelts, I got (in my experience) a tautology around the word "be". Which, IMHO, should be tabooed in all serious philosophical discussion, as "be" is the mother of word-lockpicks. Vide E-Prime, English without "be", https://en.wikipedia.org/…

Wanted to talk about it with Claude Fable 5... and it flagged the conversation ( https://x.com/pmigdal/status/2064837039552409763 ). Sure, cybersecurity and biology are dangerous topics. Turns out, so is philosophy of mind.

Those of us without twitter accounts can't see those links btw!

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#58
post #31

I read this article since it was referred to often in philosophy of mind, including by Daniel Dennett in "Consciousness Explained". Yet... while I expected some deeper dive into Umwelts, I got (in my experience) a tautology around the word "be". Which, IMHO, should be tabooed in all serious philosophical discussion, as "be" is the mother of word-lockpicks. Vide E-Prime, English without "be", https://en.wikipedia.org/…

I'd love to respond, but I am shadowbanned.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#59

What it's like - the gestalt of a bat (or other thing) as it engages its sensing-deciding-reacting loop. This gestalt isn't just for biological organisms, but any system for which its decision making engages with representations of the external environment unified with a self-representation to form a coherent representation of a persistent entity engaged with an external world. Why do such systems need this gestalt?…

> This gestalt isn't just for biological organisms, but any system for which its decision making engages with representations of the external environment unified with a self-representation to form a coherent representation of a persistent entity engaged with an external world.

This doesn't seem quite right, or at least underspecified. We can talk about this stuff concretely these days, at least in the context of digital systems. E.g. i can draw up a diagram of a system that takes in some camera and audio data (and tactile, proprioceptive, etc.), tokenizes it then runs that + past state data through some autoregressive VLM to drive an inference process. The state being passed around can be written out analytically for a given trained model - the external and internal environmental representations, the linear algebra that transforms them into latent action representations, the process by which that is transformed into control signals. It seems difficult to claim that the computational process that implements this has any more or less of a gestalt then one multiplying two matrices together. So it's not just the existence of certain representations or computational loops that seems to lead to possessing a gestalt.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#60
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted to talk about it with Claude Fable 5... and it flagged the conversation ( https://x.com/pmigdal/status/2064837039552409763 ). Sure, cybersecurity and biology are dangerous topics. Turns out, so is philosophy of mind.

Those of us without twitter accounts can't see those links btw!

Try xcancel: https://xcancel.com/pmigdal/status/2064837039552409763
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