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Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

newscientist.com

11–20 of 223 posts

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#11
post #6

I think the ancestor drones are land and sea mines, or really any kind of trap that dislocates the timing and control of the "trigger" from the person who launched it into the environment. These newer drones have just gained locomotion instead of having to wait for victims to come to them.

I think the line is even fuzzier than you've described. Drones are very much analogous to missiles and torpedoes. Torpedoes have long been used in sea mines, and 'automatically' activated upon detection of acoustic or magnetic signature match.

The difference is in "active"/intelligent versus "passive"/dumb targetting that's performed by the machine.

The missile, once fired, has the general vicinity (if not the exact position) of the target and is armed by the operator. Therefore, the operator is fully accountable for the targetting. Same goes for the landmines, once placed. Hitting civilians is reckless at best, and negligent at worst.

An autonomous weapon system (AWS) usually means that the system, once deployed, can do the targetting itself over any arbitrarily bounded location. An AWS can continue finding targets as long as its hardware allows it. For kamikaze drones, it's one time; for other drones, the ammunition & battery are the limits.

We currently rely on human targetting because we assume that A) humans are able to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate targets "well-enough", and if not, B) at least we can hold them accountable (e.g., punish them for war crimes).

An AWS provides a layer of plausible deniability: the operator can claim that the system wasn't developed well enough, while the developer can claim that it wasn't used as intended. Given the inscrutability of modern computational intelligence - i.e., visual-action neural networks - this could potentially lead to very worrying incidents.

From a technical POV, the difference between a manually operated drone and an AWS drone may not be massive. From a military POV, it's just another legal lethal tool in the arsenal.

But from a social/civilian POV, the use of AWS is still 'not normal' and opens a can of worms. Targetting while evading counterattacks and crimes successfully is a bottleneck for manual operation. That's no longer the case with AWS: build 20 thousand drones, for example, and you can trivially win by overwhelming any manual defense of frontlines or cities. And knowing the history of human warfare, winning can range from relatively bloodless regime changes to utter destruction of the loser's civilization.

So, the best outcome is similar to nuclear deterrence or MAD: as long as everyone has 20 thousand AWS drones, they're safe.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#13

If you drop a dumb bomb on an area, it kills everyone there. If you release an autonomous drone in an area, it will probably kill everyone there, but might use its AI to decide not to kill some people there. Why is the latter worse than the former ?

"Kill everyone in the area" is probably the least harmful for the reason described.

It is much more dangerous when they start to be selective. Then people start trusting the selection capabilities and use them in cases where they wouldn't use a "kill everyone" weapon.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#14
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can both be bad. One way in which automated drones might be considered bad, is (if) they cannot accept surrender - but are used in scenarios where human operators could. "No quarter" is a war crime.

This is a much more difficult distinction to make than you're letting on. Cruise missiles offer no quarter, but manually operated drones might (though there is often no way to capture the opponents). The question is what is the difference between the two weapons systems...

What a fun system we have set up and continue to be trapped in

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#15
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can both be bad. One way in which automated drones might be considered bad, is (if) they cannot accept surrender - but are used in scenarios where human operators could. "No quarter" is a war crime.

This is a much more difficult distinction to make than you're letting on. Cruise missiles offer no quarter, but manually operated drones might (though there is often no way to capture the opponents). The question is what is the difference between the two weapons systems...

Drones might hunt down enemies running away from the target site, while a missile would only destroy the target - and those not abandoning their post?

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#17
post #6

I think the ancestor drones are land and sea mines, or really any kind of trap that dislocates the timing and control of the "trigger" from the person who launched it into the environment. These newer drones have just gained locomotion instead of having to wait for victims to come to them.

I think the line is even fuzzier than you've described. Drones are very much analogous to missiles and torpedoes. Torpedoes have long been used in sea mines, and 'automatically' activated upon detection of acoustic or magnetic signature match.

The gulf war (1991) tv broadcasts of cruise missiles 100 feet above the road sure look(ed) a lot like autonomous drones on their way to killed humans to me.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#18

Is this any different from say, carpet-bombing an area? If so, how?

I can kill you by having a B-52 level the entire downtown area where you work.

Or, I can have a drone with an LPR slam a mortar round into your car as you drive.

Re: Fully autonomous drones have killed human soldiers for the first time

#20

I think the ancestor drones are land and sea mines, or really any kind of trap that dislocates the timing and control of the "trigger" from the person who launched it into the environment. These newer drones have just gained locomotion instead of having to wait for victims to come to them.

Big "an AR 15 is just an automatic bow which is basically a spear thrower which is basically a knife which his basically a punch so nothing matters anyways" vibe
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