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I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

danq.me

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Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#111
post #8

Speaking of "natural scrolling" it is horrible because most scrolling is downward and "natural" is an ergonomically inferior pushing action instead of pulling. It's only natural on the actual display itself. Anothe affront to nature by Apple, along with killing the headphone jack.

It makes sense on a trackpad too which is what the majority of sold Macs come with. You’re “pushing” the document, not moving the scroll bars. Seems perfectly natural to me. My fingers move up, the document moves up; just like what would happen to a piece of paper being slid up a table. Yes, it’s less direct than touching the screen, but it makes more sense for the model of UI they’ve been going for over the last 20…

It's the ergonomics that I have an issue with.

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#112
post #8

Speaking of "natural scrolling" it is horrible because most scrolling is downward and "natural" is an ergonomically inferior pushing action instead of pulling. It's only natural on the actual display itself. Anothe affront to nature by Apple, along with killing the headphone jack.

Apple's just doing what's on the agenda, plugging the analog hole. Your TV doesn't have a headphone jack any more either. TVs haven't had this in decades.

My LG OLED TV does have a headphone jack, and I send that through a mixer (combined with my CRT gaming setup's output, my record player, and my PC's output) to my stereo.

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#113
post #73
post #12

I've switched to programmable ergo keyboards where there's a whole slew of options ( https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods just covers home row mods) I've always hated stateful control. Always ripped out caps lock key from my boards (or later figured out remapping), same for insert mode That's carried over, even with options like one shot mods, & cutting down to under 40 keys (& playing with 28, yesterday rece…

Aren't layers a form of stateful control?

I think the distinction __s is making is between layer toggles (layer is active between layer key presses, described as stateful) vs layer modifiers (layer is active while layer key is held).

And there are definitely reasons to minimize keyboard state. I've been playing around with programmable keyboards (running RMK in my case) with several thumb keys. My thumb was getting fatigued, so I tried using a layer toggle to avoid having to hold it while using the nav layer. I would hit it by accident and then get confused about why my keyboard isn't doing what I expect ("mode confusion"). That gets awkward, unproductive, and embarrassing real fast. You can display the mode via per-key LEDs and/or an OLED display, but those only help if you actually look down at the keyboard, which is not my habit. (I have thought about using a companion app to display an overlay on my computer's screen when in a non-default layer.)

fwiw, I think most of my thumb fatigue was from using my thumb on modifier keys beneath z/x/c and equivalent on the right, which required folding my thumb underneath my palm. Bad idea.

These keyboard designs have some really interesting ideas, but the ideas aren't all unambiguously good. Some of what are described as thumb keys really shouldn't be used with the thumb. I'm still on the fence about column stagger. I think a lot of the reason people avoid the number row on these keyboards is because the purely vertical reach on a column-staggered keyboard is more awkward than the diagonal movement you make on a row-staggered keyboard. And the idea that column stagger is better because it forces you to use e.g. the ring finger for "c" is based on an idea that it's bad to use the index finger for "c" even with a row-staggered keyboard, and I disagree with that. I also think they're undervaluing muscle memory (or maybe were made for people who never learned to type well on a row-staggered keyboard and are really committed to always using the column-staggered keyboard).

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#114

Cant remember using a function key.. but i believe there are programs that do. More curious.. are there people that use the caps lock key? Its great real-estate…

I once found that my old Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard had an option to disable the Caps Lock Key in the settings. I immediately used that. Then after a reboot Caps Lock was ON and the Key was disabled - Shift now also didn't disable Caps Lock...

That taught me that sometimes you need the Caps lock Key badly...

Software can control the state of the key - and you need a way to get rid of that. Back in the day - to enforce only Upper-Case Text in some Text-Field - some software even messed with global Casp Lock State when entering the Text-Field...

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#115
Another VIA/QMK/VIAL nerd, mostly with 40%'s (split or otherwise, Chiri CE and Mercutio being my favorites), I think the main things modern keyboards should flat out adopt:

1. Offer a layout that's swapped CAPS with Ctrl.

2. Split spacebar

3. Remapping on the board

The caps/ctrl thing is just so obvious once you daily drive it for a bit. I personally banish caps to another layer and think even on normal keyboards it'd be better on a function layer, but given inertia and people swearing up and down they NEED capslock in 2026, this seems like an easy compromise.

The split space just flat out gives you an extra button.

Most people hit space with one thumb or the other (and in shockingly consistent spots, I find i use the middle space of 3 key split, which is the 1u). That means the entire other half of the button is wasted real-estate and the thumb on your other hand literally or mostly does nothing.

The final one with on board remapping is where you can customize that extra space to be the function you want. I know some people who swear by tap hold, double tap, toggle, whatever. Even thought those are being yelled about in the comments here, whatever your flavor you can do, and you've got a button for it right there.

If you still want your standard "i need a button for everything layout" cool, fine, this changes nothing.

If one day you decide you want to at least try something new (and if you can already touch type i HIGHLY recommend exploring the space with something cheap), cool. Here's a leaping off point.

Personally, the epiphany for me was realizing during some testing that yes i NEED a numpad/function keys all the time. But instead of that being an argument for a fullsize, it was actually an argument for getting better access to another layer so my numbers/functions are under my fingers at all times (4/5/6 is J/K/L). About an hour after testing that I never wanted to go back, and it feels so much slower and arduous when i'm not on one of my boards (god especially things like vim which love their escape key)

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#116
post #60
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinkpad laptops thankfully have the option to switch Fn and Ctrl Key in the bios, because that Fn in the bottem left is reserved by my muscle memory to ctrl and I won't change that.

They switched the Ctrl/Fn position a year or two ago so people like you would stop complaining. Of course this means that instead you have anybody who's used a thinkpad in the last 30 years complaining about the switch. It's a little better now because they made the keys the same size, so after you switch them in the BIOS you can physically switch the keycaps around.

Every keyboard I used so far - and those were many, many, many - have the ctrl in the bottom left.

Lenovo is the only weird excemption I experienced.

So I believe people like me are the vast majority and you should maybe rather blame them, for introducing this weirdness in the first place.

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#117
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like you would prefer Emacs over Vim.

I mostly agree with GP on stateful controls, but emacs has never clicked for me like vim did. Perhaps it's because switching between modes feels more natural than a simple toggle.

Whereas I cut my teeth on emacs in the early 90's, so modal is what felt awkward. I wouldn't dislike vim's modes so much if it just had one combination insert/append mode that worked like every other editor out there (including a couple other modal editors I've used), but even after adding various hacks to my vimrc to help unify the two modes, I still stumble over the behavior differences in other places.

I really like the composable shorthand of vim's command set though, even if the only one I have in muscle memory is :wq

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#118

Cant remember using a function key.. but i believe there are programs that do. More curious.. are there people that use the caps lock key? Its great real-estate…

> are there people that use the caps lock key?

I for one do. Old habit when typing in longish C constants (ECONNRESET) or shell environment variables. I'm used to typing capitals by holding the Shift with the pinky of the other hand than the one entering the letter, so with long strings of capitals sometimes I'd have to switch for every other letter, which gets old fast. With Caps Lock, I press it, type in the letters, press it again.

Completion mostly works these days if you have it, but you don't always.

Re: I Hate (Most) Keyboard 'Fn' Keys

#119
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't layers a form of stateful control?

Sort of. The downside from the 'state' from Caps Lock is you have to keep track of whether it's active or not. Whereas with layers, typically a layer will only be active if you're holding down some kind of "activate layer" key.

Jef Raskin called those "quasimodes" in The Humane Interface (2000) and was in favor of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(user_interface)#Quasimod...

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