Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

651–660 of 735 posts

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#651

Post by M95D »

mike_hearn wrote: post #641
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do have a say. They can elect representatives who could change the legal framework and the incentives for the bureaucrats, or even remove the ability of the bureaucrats to regulate certain things. Then these regulations would not get passed and that would be that.

> They can elect representatives They cannot. The EU Parliament cannot pass, change or repeal laws. Its representatives can't represent. If you mean elect national representatives, then the EU treaties were deliberately written to only give them one option - exit entirely and be trade sanctioned by the others as a result, who must obey constitutionally even if it's self harm and they don't want to do it. The EU is de…

> The EU Parliament cannot pass, change or repeal laws.

I suggest you verify that.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#652

Post by mike_hearn »

KoolKat23 wrote: post #647
mike_hearn wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can elect representatives They cannot. The EU Parliament cannot pass, change or repeal laws. Its representatives can't represent. If you mean elect national representatives, then the EU treaties were deliberately written to only give them one option - exit entirely and be trade sanctioned by the others as a result, who must obey constitutionally even if it's self harm and they don't want to do it. The EU is de…

If it's not in the EU parliaments jurisdiction, it's in the EU council's. As a rule, all members states have to be democratic and you can simply vote out your EU council member i.e. your head of state. It is democratic.

The EU Councils decisions are taken in secret. You have no idea if it's democratic or not, nor does it matter even if they do hold a vote because by convention none of them ever campaign on the decisions they make there.

To see this, try and find out how Ursula von der Leyen ended up the most powerful woman in Europe. What qualified her for that, who were the alternative candidates considered, what was said during the debate and by whom.

You can't because the entire process was secret from end to end. Was she even voted on? Nobody knows.

Again, the EU is designed to pass itself off as democratic without being so. But so is China.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#653

Post by rambambram »

Ravus wrote: post #648
rambambram wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about incorporated bodies, I'm talking EU law. EU decides what it wants in EU, not outside EU. Or am I missing something?

GDPR also applies to companies that provide services to EU citizens, no matter where the company is based. This makes a lot of sense, because otherwise you'd get situations where Multi Corp X could claim, "Oh, but our Berlin office is actually offering this service hosted in Kiribati. We just happen to have German users" and not offer access to personal data. Seen as enforcement is through fines, companies that do no…

I know about that. These situations are logical, if you'd ask me. The OP suggested EU law works where all parties involved are outside EU. Like EU playing world police, or something.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#654

Post by M95D »

aeontech wrote: post #89
gmueckl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwing infinite money at engineering problems doesn't move deadlines arbitrarily. But Apple's position here is actually really wild: Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product? This is quite the contradiction.

Lemma 1: you want to protect your users privacy, and are also beholden to regulation enforcing that commitment (GDPR). Lemma 2: you are obliged by other regulation to offer equal access to user data to third parties, so others can build equivalent functionality (DMA). Lemma 3: malicious third parties will absolutely try to abuse the access and trick the user into sharing their data by all means possible. You will be…

1: If you want to protect user's privacy, you collect no personal information, so GDPR doesn't apply.

2: You do that.

3: Since your platform collects no private information, they get nothing from you. If they collect private information on their own, it's their job to comply with GDPR.

What you should do in case (3) is ask the user for permission to allow the 3rd party access to private data on their device. It's their choice (not yours) to allow it or not.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#655

Post by mike_hearn »

M95D wrote: post #651
mike_hearn wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can elect representatives They cannot. The EU Parliament cannot pass, change or repeal laws. Its representatives can't represent. If you mean elect national representatives, then the EU treaties were deliberately written to only give them one option - exit entirely and be trade sanctioned by the others as a result, who must obey constitutionally even if it's self harm and they don't want to do it. The EU is de…

> The EU Parliament cannot pass, change or repeal laws. I suggest you verify that.

It's a constitutional fact. The most they can do is propose amendments to laws proposed by the Commission, but the Commission drives the whole process and isn't required to accept them (worst case, they just cancel the law and then try again later).

There is literally nobody you can vote for to if you want to repeal the DMA.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#656

Post by throwaway329847 »

microtonal wrote: post #320
abigail95 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phrasing it like that that without mentioning the $40B penalty if Apple releases the feature today feels a bit off to me.

Nobody in the EU would have been upset if they said: we cannot offer this in the EU because we want to shut out competitors from providing alternative LLMs and this is not allowed in Europe. Fine. I don't care. Many Europeans are upset that Apple blames Europe that they cannot implement this because it would sacrifice privacy. (Which is kind of ironic, because the EU has nearly the best privacy protection worldwide.)…

Ah yes, famous EU privacy protections like Chat Control or ProtectEU

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#657

Post by [deleted] »

gmueckl wrote: post #35
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Throwing infinite money at engineering problems doesn't move deadlines arbitrarily. But Apple's position here is actually really wild: Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product? This is quite the contradiction.

[deleted]

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#658

Post by viktorcode »

wmf wrote: post #574
viktorcode wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, my mistake. DMA. However, it runs counter to the definition of antitrust law, that is the law that applies to the trust or a monopoly, an entity that controls the market. DMA instead applies to the companies of certain size, regardless whether they have market control or not.

It's a matter of interpretation. From the DMA's perspective, the iPhone is a market and thus Apple has a monopoly on that market. Likewise they consider MS to have monopoly control of the Windows market.

That reinterpretation would have make Apple a monopoly and thus other anti-trust laws would apply, which did not happen. As I said: they are introducing new category, the gatekeepers, for the sole purpose of making the law applicable.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#659

Post by throwaway329847 »

t-sauer wrote: post #409
jandrewrogers wrote: post #79

I understand Apple's position on this one. This is essentially a backdoor into all of your data. It is also a very useful feature. The EU regulators are disallowing guardrails without which this backdoor will be used to strip-mine people's personal data. The privacy implications are not legible to most people. If I was more cynical I would suggest that this is being used as an end-run around encryption, since the enc…

> I understand Apple's position on this one Well then explain me this: There are absolutely no restriction on MacOS where I can give Claude free access to everything. If you are a Mac and iPhone user that essentially gives it access to the exact same data. Why is the data only protect worthy when accessed on the phone directly?

There is no one-click way to install an AI model on macOS like potentially iOS could have. I can easily imagine some grandma install on their iPhone some random AI model they saw in an AI-generated Facebook post with just one tap.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#660

Post by throwaway329847 »

speedgoose wrote: post #257

I find it interesting that Apple prefers to fall behind in Europe rather than opening their platform a tiny bit. It gives us European some opportunities. I have a side project at work that was heavily threatened by Siri’s new features. Now I feel more relaxed as Siri isn’t coming there anytime soon. But overall I doubt we will replace Apple.

If Apple complied and opened up Siri like the EU wants, the only competition users could choose would be between US companies. DMA does not help EU companies.
Post reply on HN