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macOS Container Machines

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Re: macOS Container Machines

#201

Post by alwillis »

m132 wrote: post #119
TheDong wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple set itself up for defeat in the server and developer marketplace as soon as they decided macOS was proprietary code. Why would any serious developer use closed-source code they can't debug and modify? Especially for a production server? It's the same reason no serious developers or hackers use macOS, like part of the point of being a developer is being able to dig into the code at any layer and debug and fix th…

OpenDarwin was a thing at one point, with mailing lists and other infrastructure hosted by Apple. That being said, my point isn't that Apple should absolutely focus on making a server OS again. It just saddens me how far behind macOS has fallen as they stopped caring about the fundamentals; back in the day, it would be Linux trailing behind macOS. Nowadays, you can't even have multiple routing tables on the latter, t…

> OpenDarwin was a thing at one point, with mailing lists and other infrastructure hosted by Apple.

"Exploring Darwin and PureDarwin: The Open-Source Foundation of Apple's Operating Systems" - https://machaddr.substack.com/p/exploring-darwin-and-puredar...

Re: macOS Container Machines

#202

Post by kergonath »

TylerE wrote: post #90
LoganDark wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WSL1 was so cool, WSL2 made it boring and isolated.

Back in my day you to to download a couple GB worth of cygwin, and that wasn't an actual environment, basically just a GNU toolchain compiled for windows. But it got you like....grep and bash and stuff that ran natively on windows which was kinda cool.

> Back in my day you to to download a couple GB worth of cygwin

You still can, and it still works exactly the same way.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#204

Post by pseudosavant »

Onavo wrote: post #29
timsneath wrote: post #11

To clarify a few comments here: this is not only OCI containers: container machines add support for persistence and filesystem mounting, making container machines a great lightweight Linux environment for developers using macOS. More details here: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2026/389

Ah, the Darwin/BSD Subsystem for Linux.

Exactly what I thought. The Mac equivalent to WSL. Which is a great thing for Mac devs. Lots of stuff expects Linux these days, not POSIX. Mach isn’t Linux.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#205

Post by solarkraft »

crote wrote: post #113
joshuat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a legitimate business interest to further incentivize the adoption of Apple Silicon devices. Same with Rosetta deprecation after macOS 27.

Sure, but to what extent? Enterprise ARM servers are still a niche product, and so are the ARM developer machines running Linux or Windows. Until this significantly changes, Apple will have to provide good x86 interop - or lose the developer market entirely. Forcing people towards Apple silicon is of course an attractive approach when targeting the large portion of the market using their MacBooks as Facebook browsing…

That’s a joke right? I’ve been developing software deployed on x86 servers on ARM Macs ever since they were released.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#206

Post by kergonath »

xd1936 wrote: post #143
vachanmn123 wrote: post #142

Could this allow us to use proton on mac maybe?

This is hilarious. Next year, the PC gamers will be saying "The best Windows gaming experience is win32 on Linux on macOS Containers".

Wine works fine on macOS, there is no need for a Linux layer.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#207

Post by bel8 »

vachanmn123 wrote: post #142

Could this allow us to use proton on mac maybe?

I don't think so. This is a VM, closer to WSL2.

Proton is based on Wine which translates Windows instructions to Linux.

Besides there's already Wine for mac.

But I would love to be wrong here.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#208

Post by pjmlp »

qalmakka wrote: post #183
TylerE wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in my day you to to download a couple GB worth of cygwin, and that wasn't an actual environment, basically just a GNU toolchain compiled for windows. But it got you like....grep and bash and stuff that ran natively on windows which was kinda cool.

Does any older folk here remembers when NT was the Cool New Thing (TM) and it had by design support to multiple subsystems plopped over the NT API, and Win32 was just one of them alongside POSIX (Interix) and OS/2? There was even a _very short_ time span when Interix was actually usable (it was extremely short though)

Yes, the only reason I cared for Linux in first place was that the POSIX support wasn't that good.

I am convinced that if POSIX subsystem was UNIX serious, GNU/Linux would never taken off on PC, and the whole would be divided between SGI, HP-UX, Solaris, Aix and Windows NT.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#209

Post by k_bx »

Most of my team's development happens on beefy desktop machine in incus containers per dev+project (so you run yourname-projname-dev). It has its own tailscale inside so you can open it like regular https website or give to another dev to check out – no need to deploy your branch somewhere, just run it. New dev onboard takes 10 minutes from zero to dev env with VSCode remote development.

I would really love if apple could give inexpensive way to run amd64 containers for situations when dev wants to use their own hardware. We've used LIMA for now, was too much of a hussle. But if there's a more native experience – would give it another try.

Re: macOS Container Machines

#210

Post by pjmlp »

Gigachad wrote: post #194
pjmlp wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony that without Windows there are no Linux games, eventually Linux folks will learn about OS/2 history in regards to Windows compatibility features. Linux will stay forever a headless operating system great for embedded, server rooms and containers. We have all limited time on Earth, and eventually Valve won't be around as it used to be, might even be acquired, sold, whatever, then what in regards to Linux gam…

Wine existed before Proton, Valve made it better but the project doesn't rely on Valve. Currently Linux is the best gaming experience. Zero bloat or nagware, everything just works. It's just ironic Wine/Proton ended up being the best platform for gaming on Linux. I don't think anyone expected it to run so well with virtually no performance impact. Now with the Fex project, it might end up that running Windows games o…

The best gaming experience are Switch, PlayStation, XBox, iOS, Android, the very definition of everything just works, and no kernel drivers to worry about.
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