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B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

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Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#41

Post by Elepsis »

galadriel wrote: post #35
edanm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure there's a difference in photocopying an entire book and doing the same to a DRM book. Do you know specifically that there is a difference?

One is a federal felony, other is a fair use. EDIT: Specifically, it is against the law to break DRM (unless for few cases outlined by library of Congress), and the law as written makes no exceptions for fair use. The courts have also held in positive that it was Congress intend to make breaking DRM a crime even if there is a fair use case.

... Except that's wrong. It's not fair use to photocopy an entire book and it never has been. Let's not lose sight of the actual laws in our blind rage against DRM.

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#42

Post by thinkling »

dansingerman wrote: post #40

Having had to get my hands dirty in the murky world of Adobe DRM, I am pretty sure this is actually an implementation problem with how Barnes & Noble have implemented it. As crazy as it may seem, I believe in the B&N case the DRM licence is based on the credit card details. Hence no more credit card, no more licence. One day I may do a longer post how horrifyingly awful Adobe DRM is technically, (never mind the ethic…

I don't doubt that Adobe DRM may be awfl, but when the customer isn't allowed to download the book, how does the DRM implementation enter into it? The DRM (as embedded in the ebook files) isn't in play here.

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#43

Post by karolist »

javajosh wrote: post #6

The simple fact is that the ebook experience sucks all the way around. I gave it a shot with the Nook Touch, and I really dislike it, even if DRM wasn't an issue. Over the years my subconcious has grown used to indexing the story according to certain physical properties of the book. "Oh yes, that happend about a cm in on the right side page, like halfway down" is something I might think- but this coordinate system do…

I agree on your point about visual indexing. There's one more reason I prefer paper books - when I read a book, I take something from it, be it technical knowledge, be it "self help" type of advise. When this book is sitting there near my work desk, in a bookshelf, a small glance at it triggers back those memories and values gained, therefore I find it easier to apply the knowledge from the book, when it's constantly reminding me of it's existence. With ebooks, it would just end up somewhere hidden deep into the folder structure or in an index of some app (iBooks for example) and the memories of it slowly fade.

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#44

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

chrischen wrote: post #11
pilif wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a new one. I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the real world exists: I have th…

I can photocopy or scan every page. It may not be easy, but it's doable, and the publisher does not have technology that actively prevents me from doing this.

I'm not sure what DRM your publisher is using that actively prevents you from backing things up if you're willing to exert a modest amount of effort (probably less than photocopying an entire paper book).

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#45

Post by dansingerman »

thinkling wrote: post #42
dansingerman wrote: post #40

Having had to get my hands dirty in the murky world of Adobe DRM, I am pretty sure this is actually an implementation problem with how Barnes & Noble have implemented it. As crazy as it may seem, I believe in the B&N case the DRM licence is based on the credit card details. Hence no more credit card, no more licence. One day I may do a longer post how horrifyingly awful Adobe DRM is technically, (never mind the ethic…

I don't doubt that Adobe DRM may be awfl, but when the customer isn't allowed to download the book, how does the DRM implementation enter into it? The DRM (as embedded in the ebook files) isn't in play here.

The default Adobe DRM implementation requires that you need an Adobe ID (i.e. an account with Adobe) to access the book. (DRM licences are against Adobe accounts)

The bigger players who use Adobe DRM (Like B&N) of course don't want this, so there are alternative schemes where you can use a token to represent the user that is not the Adobe ID.

In the B&N case, I believe that token is based on the credit card details.

You also only download the actual encrypted epub after the DRM licence has been applied. (The initial download is a small XML file which your Adobe RMSDK app uses to decide if you have access to the ebook)

ergo, no valid credit card, no valid account to unlock DRM, and get access to the actual content file.

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#46

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

e12e wrote: post #39
curiousdannii wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@pilif, you're allowed to backup CDs and DVDs, why not books?

Are you allowed to do that in the US? I thought backing up a (movie) DVD would be considered circumventing DRM (CSS in this case) ?

I'm not sure it's ever been tested (and potentially never will be as it's unlikely anyone would be taken to court over genuine backups I suspect).

Isn't this one of those areas which even if it is potentially technically illegal is likely to practically never be an issue?

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#47

Post by ljf »

pilif wrote: post #8
sami36 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them. oh Yes, We can. The reason we're entitled to it is the fact that DRM stands in the way of us customers backing up our purchases. If my eBook were in a format devoid of DRM & I could back it up by saving it in Droppbox or my external hard drive,…

To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a new one. I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the real world exists: I have th…

The difference is, my bookshelf space at home is something I can choose - the internal space on my locked down device is not - so to carry on buying new books, I have to remove old content. This is saying I cannot get my content back (content I PAID for) without a CC on file.

The real world analogy does not work here - as I can carry on storing the books I want, and am fully aware that when I choose to remove a book, then I no longer have it - the expectation with a digital purchase, is that they hold my virtual bookself. If they don't then they need to make that clear, and provide ways for me to take on that responsibility.

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#48

Post by dllthomas »

bad_user wrote: post #27
pilif wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a new one. I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the real world exists: I have th…

Digital storage is far more unreliable ... when we'll have content that survived in digital form for thousands of years (or heck, I would be happy with 20 years), then we'll be able to compare apples to apples. Also, even though I have a child at home, I never had a book that "broke" - as there's nothing that some glue can't fix. The only real danger for the preservation of books in physical form is fire. > by centra…

> The only real danger for thhe preservation of books in physical form is fire.

Also water.

Re: B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

#49

Post by pseingatl »

There isn't a ''real world'' analogy. This is a sale of goods and as such is governed (in the USA) by Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. All sales, whether the goods are digital or not, carry an implied warranty of merchantability. This means that the product sold can be used under normal circumstances. Here, the buyer received nothing for his money. Do not be distracted by the digital world of downloads, DRM and software licenses, the UCC nevertheless applies. B&N has stores all over the country and is subject to small claims courts and perhaps even class actions. After a few lawsuits they will wake up and stop this practice.
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