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Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

codingwithjesse.com

331–340 of 401 posts

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craftsmanship is not dead in other industries in the same way it is being talked about for software. Sure, that cheap desk that arrived in a flat box and got assembled by me and a screwdriver was mass produced in a factory. But it's design had way more expert craftsmanship put into it than would ever be feasible for a bespoke product. High upfront design cost, then mass produced at a low marginal cost. That had been…

Do you honestly think an ikea desk has "more expert craftsmanship" than a hand crafted by a woodworker desk?

Don't you think IKEA has expert engineers designing their furniture that will sell millions?

Programming is the equivalent to designing a factory, not carving out wood pieces.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#333
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do. Have you literally never run into a problem that the average developer can not solve, but a expert can solve? That is infinity times more productive. Even assuming that maybe the average developer could come to learn how to solve the problem you can easily see the gap between taking months to learn how to solve a problem versus already knowing how to solve it on short notice being over 10x. Large p…

> Have you literally never run into a problem that the average developer can not solve, but a expert can solve? In what time frame? > Even assuming that maybe the average developer could come to learn ... already knowing how to solve it on short notice being over 10x. 10x? I'm not convinced. 10x is a pretty big increase, as illustrated above. Clearly I understand the gap, I explicitly mentioned it. I mentioned a mont…

> I doubt even a staff level engineer is even a 10x above the junior

Its not about staff vs junior, its about smart vs dumb programmers. You don't get smarter with time, you just gain more experience.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#334

> Craftsmanship will always be in our hands, it's one thing we can never outsource to a machine. I'm right there with you, but this last sentence concerned me a bit. In my most other "industries", craftsmanship is not _dead_, but it's been pushed to the wayside for (significantly) cheaper and more available alternatives. You can still get hand-made leather shoes, but very few want to pay $1000+ for them. You can stil…

Craftsmanship does not have to die to have millions of software-engineering jobs displaced, right? I assume when people worry about the craftsmanship, they worry about that enough number of people would lose their jobs because AI coding has becomes sufficiently good.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#335
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> considered a 10x developer The 10x developer never existed. You're telling me these people are doing a year's worth of work in 1.2 months? Seriously?! 10x?! In a year you can probably learn to program from scratch and participle if you're working 8hrs per day 5 days a week We need to stop exaggerating so much. A 2x dev would be insane! A 1.5x dev does a year's work in 8. A 1.1x dev does it in 11. Saving a whole mon…

Of course they do. Have you literally never run into a problem that the average developer can not solve, but a expert can solve? That is infinity times more productive. Even assuming that maybe the average developer could come to learn how to solve the problem you can easily see the gap between taking months to learn how to solve a problem versus already knowing how to solve it on short notice being over 10x. Large p…

I think the myth/claim of a 10x developer is true but only relative to said rockstar engineer's immediate environment.

Put simply, the 10x developer is a 10x because they've spent ~10x more time immersed in the problem domain than the average developer.

What they do is more sleight-of-hand than Tony Stark engineering his way out of a terrorist cell. If 10x engineer takes a weekend to solve a problem that has stumped the team for a month, it's because he's collected the necessary context to solve the problem over the course of their long career; doesn't mean the answer didn't need to be synthesized, but they already had the raw materials in their cupboard. They have a giants' shoulder to stand on because they bothered climbing. They didn't derive anything from first principles; no one prototyped an Iron Man suit from scrap contraband.

The implication being anyone can be a 10x engineer in the right environment.

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Allow me to carry my own throne with an anecdote, believe what you will: once upon a time, Engineering Manager had the brilliant idea to create a modular system for our main product, the pitch being that we can outsource feature development to contractors while keeping team costs down as we only need to maintain a lean modular system. They tested the idea on a couple of easy scope projects which were successful.

Then came the big test. Three projects outsourced to a team of four contractors. These projects were far more complex than the first two: lots of state management and integration with other systems. In due time deadline neared and the contractors had a very pretty UI that just needed to be wired in. I got pulled in to see the projects home. It was supposed to be easy if not for the Pareto Principle. Relationship with the contractors soon soured as they bailed, showing us that they've technically already accomplished the project on their billable hours spreadsheet. We, the regular team, just needed to deploy the code they turned in but the deployment is none of their concern apparently.

That's when I had to roll-up my sleeves, got dirty with their spaghetti code. The way I see it, the contractors fell on the part where they had to integrate with other systems because said systems were legacy, i.e., created before the idea of the Lean Modular Main System. Honestly, even I didn't know exactly how to work with them but, crucially, I knew how to get answers when the going got tough. I knew how to quickly figure out what I didn't know because as a regular employee I knew things beyond first principles.

In the end, two out of the three projects deployed. They were only a couple weeks late. IIRC the third one only failed because it really ran out of time budget. Upper Management was not happy but Engineering Manager stuck out his neck for me, for which I am genuinely grateful. I didn't get exactly the coveted 10x wording out of him but he pointed out that I released 2/3 whereas a team of four couldn't even release one.

That's not entirely accurate of course. I could code you up a decent web frontend but I could not, for the life of me, get all those pretty UI animations to work even if it's my only way out of a terrorist cell.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#336
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do. Have you literally never run into a problem that the average developer can not solve, but a expert can solve? That is infinity times more productive. Even assuming that maybe the average developer could come to learn how to solve the problem you can easily see the gap between taking months to learn how to solve a problem versus already knowing how to solve it on short notice being over 10x. Large p…

> Have you literally never run into a problem that the average developer can not solve, but a expert can solve? In what time frame? > Even assuming that maybe the average developer could come to learn ... already knowing how to solve it on short notice being over 10x. 10x? I'm not convinced. 10x is a pretty big increase, as illustrated above. Clearly I understand the gap, I explicitly mentioned it. I mentioned a mont…

I believe in a 10x because it's everywhere.

It doesn't mean more work it often means creativity.

For example when I was an EE I worked at a company that had spent nearly 8 months, 50k on consultants, and easily 3 peoples full time for a lot of effort plus the testing side.

I swapped that 800$ board out for essentially a lightbulb. Did identical work I'm proud of that EE work but code is identical. I would never call myself a 10x developer but I've wiped entire code bases more than once.

Maybe I have "10x" moments? But to say this isn't a real phenomenon means you're in a super structured and political enviroment.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#337

> Craftsmanship will always be in our hands, it's one thing we can never outsource to a machine. I'm right there with you, but this last sentence concerned me a bit. In my most other "industries", craftsmanship is not _dead_, but it's been pushed to the wayside for (significantly) cheaper and more available alternatives. You can still get hand-made leather shoes, but very few want to pay $1000+ for them. You can stil…

That's wholly the wrong perspective. The equivalent of "craftsmanship" in software would be how the shoe is designed, not its manufacturing. Software developers produce unique intellectual property. They don't manufacture units of software. Similar to book authors or musicians (not on tour).

There is no equivalent of unit manufacturing in software since it's just copying around bits.

"Craftsmanship", then, in the context of software just means how much you give a shit about designing something good. That's not going anywhere unless we get to a point where even the quality of the software that we use ceases to matter, and there is nothing to indicate we're moving in that direction.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understand. Is your contention that the distinction between senior and non-senior engineers is fake and everyone's doing basically the same thing? Or are you just objecting to the (arbitrary) names Microsoft uses for them?

False dichotomy. Of course not everyone has the same experience/skills, but any corporate system of putting individuals to tiers has little to do with experience/skills.

I think they measure different things. The ladder levels have to do with the type of jobs you can accomplish in a large organization. I actually find they translate reasonably well to nontechnical roles in corporate structures. It is of course tempting to think that good engineers will be high level in those ratings, but that’s really not what is being measured by levels. A certain proficiency is required, but it’s mostly about responsibility and ability to take on tasks of a certain scale or organizational complexity.

All this to say it is absolutely reasonable for the OP to complain that they are being underutilized at the role of senior being given small byte sized projects of for no other reason than that this would prevent future growth.

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craftsmanship is not dead in other industries in the same way it is being talked about for software. Sure, that cheap desk that arrived in a flat box and got assembled by me and a screwdriver was mass produced in a factory. But it's design had way more expert craftsmanship put into it than would ever be feasible for a bespoke product. High upfront design cost, then mass produced at a low marginal cost. That had been…

Do you honestly think an ikea desk has "more expert craftsmanship" than a hand crafted by a woodworker desk?

[deleted]

Re: Cleaning up after AI rockstar developers

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craftsmanship is not dead in other industries in the same way it is being talked about for software. Sure, that cheap desk that arrived in a flat box and got assembled by me and a screwdriver was mass produced in a factory. But it's design had way more expert craftsmanship put into it than would ever be feasible for a bespoke product. High upfront design cost, then mass produced at a low marginal cost. That had been…

Do you honestly think an ikea desk has "more expert craftsmanship" than a hand crafted by a woodworker desk?

Definitely. Expert craftsmanship in cost optimization, in shipping optimization, in production/factory design and optimization, in material sourcing, in durability testing, in design for mass market appeal, in marketing material, in documentation, et cetera.
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