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Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

reuters.com

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Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#471

Post by AndroTux »

MBCook wrote: post #273
AndroTux wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's more Apple's attempt to prevent users to choose their own models. Apple could build it in a way that other model providers could safely and securely interface with the Spotlight index. They could implement a big warning that shows "if you proceed with this request, Spotlight will send this and that to the model provider." But Apple chose not to do that.

> Apple could build it in a way that other model providers could safely and securely interface with the Spotlight index How? How do you safely handover effectively every single bit of data on someone’s phone to any third-party company and preserve privacy? Sure you can try and demand agreements from the third parties but will the EU see that as a move to limit competition? Ignoring all other concerns it is a rather t…

If you decide to upload all your data to $company, that’s your choice. I don’t see why a user shouldn’t have the choice to do that. People already have all their data with Google and Meta, so I don’t see why this would be an issue for many. It’s not Apples job to protect users from themselves.

Besides, opening up the API would also allow people to self-host their models and plug in their own servers instead of having to trust the whole private cloud compute project (yes I know, it’s verifiable by experts, but I as an average homelabber certainly can’t).

It’s important to note that this isn’t about privacy. It’s about freedom of choice, and the avoidance of lock-in due to monopolistic practices.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#472

Post by krzyk »

duskwuff wrote: post #427
wtb04 wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean DMA, not DMCA. DMCA mostly protects copyright holders. DMA is about protecting users and competitors from platform lock-in. Bending for Apple would just make that lock-in harder to challenge.

DMCA provides some rather important protection for service providers (including small-scale services like web forums, not just ISPs and web hosts) - it makes them not liable for copyright violations by their users, so long as they take down infringing content upon receipt of a DMCA notice. But I agree, that's probably not what OP meant.

Doesn't "DMCA", make, well, the DMCA notice a thing?

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#474

Post by browningstreet »

burnte wrote: post #313
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

> It's not as if Apple doesn't have the money to dedicate a team to matching the EU's requirements on a deadline. They just choose not to. Exactly, that's actually why I LIKE this decision so much. I'm not on Apple's side, but I REALLY like the idea that a company just says, "Fine, we'll comply by not even offering this product." It's a perfectly legitimate choice, and it FORCED Apple to evaluate the pros and cons. I…

That's not exactly how I would summarize the current moment in time.

This OP article doesn't really go into it, but they did actually propose a solution to the divide, they just needed more time to develop it. The Reuters article is reporting on one person's response to the proceedings, which involve more details than this particular article covers.

For instance:

> To address those concerns, Apple designed a system called Trusted System Agent, an intermediary that would let competing virtual assistants safely access the same features and capabilities as Siri AI on EU devices. Apple also proposed launching Siri AI in Europe while rolling out the Trusted System Agent gradually over 18 months. The European Commission rejected both proposals, and according to Apple, did not agree to any alternative.

https://thenextweb.com/news/apple-siri-ai-eu-dma-delay-ios-2...

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#475

Post by krzyk »

jonhohle wrote: post #224
ornornor wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay? I don’t see the problem, these requirements are known from the beginning so if complying wasn’t planned and requires re-architecturing the software to make it happens that’s on the engineering org not on the EU regulator. Unless I’m missing something?

These are relatively recent and may have come into force after development began, definitely after Siri development an initial integration into personal data. I suppose if you think these rules are reasonable, you’d be happy to not have this functionality. The rest of the world will be happy to not allow third parties access to our data. As a small developer, the cost to support something like this would be so overwh…

> As a small developer, the cost to support something like this would be so overwhelming I wouldn’t consider supporting the EU officially.

Would you consider supporting US laws?

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#476

Post by burnte »

browningstreet wrote: post #474
burnte wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not as if Apple doesn't have the money to dedicate a team to matching the EU's requirements on a deadline. They just choose not to. Exactly, that's actually why I LIKE this decision so much. I'm not on Apple's side, but I REALLY like the idea that a company just says, "Fine, we'll comply by not even offering this product." It's a perfectly legitimate choice, and it FORCED Apple to evaluate the pros and cons. I…

That's not exactly how I would summarize the current moment in time. This OP article doesn't really go into it, but they did actually propose a solution to the divide, they just needed more time to develop it. The Reuters article is reporting on one person's response to the proceedings, which involve more details than this particular article covers. For instance: > To address those concerns, Apple designed a system c…

That only reinforces my argument. Apple could have waited, but they decided to go ahead now and bring it to the EU later when they can address the concerns. That's great, that's the law working.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#477

Post by burnte »

Saline9515 wrote: post #466
yxhuvud wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about, DMA has passed in the parliament.

The parliament doesn't get to choose the laws it has to vote. The parliament can't repell a law, and doesn't hold the pen during negociations.

So the laws that Parliament votes on just appear in session magically? They're not written by EU citizens and politicians?

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#478

Post by Henchman21 »

eastbound wrote: post #456
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do have a say. They can elect representatives who could change the legal framework and the incentives for the bureaucrats, or even remove the ability of the bureaucrats to regulate certain things. Then these regulations would not get passed and that would be that.

We have a say at a 4th level of derived decision, which is 2 levels more than what people call a democracy. Also, the other political party will do it too. = We don’t have a say. We voted NO to the new EU treaties in 2008 and the new president decided that electing him meant that we approved the same treaties. They only let us vote when we agree, anyway.

Voting the world over is a joke. IIRC it was Carlin who said “if voting mattered they wouldn’t met us do it”.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#479

Post by burnte »

troupo wrote: post #354
Nifty3929 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly! Also forced EU voters to consider how much they value these services, and whether the regulations are worth it not to have them, or to have watered down versions of them. I say this without judgment - I see it as a legitimate area of consideration. I think the worst is hugely impactful laws for which exceptions are constantly carved out so nobody can truly evaluate whether the law/reg is a good one or n…

"Let's discuss how countries should bend their knee before supranational corporations"

Government and corporations are natural enemies, they are two halves of an ecosystem that must be maintained in balance. This is a good thing.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#480

Post by krzyk »

jen20 wrote: post #321
aprentic wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're essentially saying that privacy violations are baked into the cores of these systems.

DMA is not about privacy.

Core not, but here it is. Apple designed the system in a way that the operator can invade your privacy. So if only Apple is the operator it is "OK", but if they allow other operators it is not.
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